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Message: <blockquote data-quote="NaturalFn20" data-source="post: 5508923" data-attributes="member: 6673434">Haha. Despite Paladins sucking and I completely understand what you're talking about, I wouldn't place them as one of the most fail classes. You can seriously make a decent Paladin. Here are a few ways I've made Paladins over the years that haven't sucked.1)Make him exalted (you need a VERY good aligned party though). Exalted feats are pretty good.2)Prestige class him into a class that stacks with Paladin abilities. For example, I currently have an elven Paladin that's Prestige'd into Champion of Correlon Larethian.Eventually you get to add dex bonus to damage. You can seriously whip out quite a bit of damage without ANY buffs on you going that route. If you have nice stats, 18STR + 18 dex=+9 damage with a magical weapon and that's not even counting feats, higher ability score or buffs.3)You don't have to be a butt kicking Paladin. You can go the defensive route. Full plate, Shield Ward, Shield Ally and all those shield spells that allow you to take -20 to hit and +20 to AC for ALL your allies adjacent to you (if you have 20 BAB that is).I've done this with a Knight and Paladin. Your allies NEVER get hit except on a natural 20 for the most part or unless you're fighting a ridiculous strength monster. Just hope your party members can put out some damage or else you're expecting VERY LONG combats.4)Try playing a Paladin with a mount. A warhorse early on and a unicorn or something later on can really help you put out some damage. 2 hoofs and a bite +your sword attack can wrack up damage, especially early on.5)Smiting featsAnyway, I didn't even go into the whole buffing route. You don't have to be an ownage Paladin to be awesome. You'll never beat a single class fighter physically. You won't outbuff a Cleric, but part of the allure of Paladin is having full BAB, having some spells, and the role playing aspect of it.Actually, my mind is sort of blurry, but I think there's even a feat where you can stack STR, DEX AND CHA for your damage modifier. You can SERIOUSLY jack up damage output if done right.On top of that, Paladin's have Detect Evil. I mean, if there's one skill/spell to have (and at will /standard action), that is the one to have. It can BREAK modules like you can't believe.Some guy with really high bluff is telling you "Oh, I can show you where to save the princess! Let me guide you. I'll do it for free!" you sense motive..let's say he beats you. Detect evil. If he's not neutral, but evil boom, bluff means nothing. You don't trust him anymore.Guy locked in a cell in a module asking for your help. Detect evil:Radiates evil. There goes the monster that could have paralyzed you if you went in and some guy that's hiding behind cover that would have jumped out and coup de grace'd you.Paladins are sick.I'm also not sure why you guys think Fighters need to be improved? Single class fighters are POWERFUL. I have level 18 fighter that isn't even optimized and puts out over 100 a round (and has been doing so for many levels..)Sure, you can have a spell caster that'll just go "fireball" and boom. There goes a swarm of enemies. I understand that. That's great, but a single class fighter with certain feats I think will kill the spellcaster. Assuming the fighter doesn't fail a "power word kill" or "finger of death" or w/e else (which can be mostly avoided by taking simple feats and buffs).What if someone has evasion..or test of mettle? You can make spellcasters useless with the right rolls, buffs, feats etc. In epic, spellcasters become even more useless imo.I mean, with the right feats, party members etc I've seen my party defeat CR25s in 2 rounds. Charge feats dishing out 250-500 damage in a single blast. There's just no getting around that.</blockquote>

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