D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Unfair fight?

[Sekhmet]

. A level 10 Warblade should be a decent challenge for a party of 4 9th-level characters.

Wat.
So, a Warblade 10 is a decent challenge for a group of four Warblade 9's? Or a level 9 Wizard, Warblade, Cleric, and Scout?



As for this arena combat, it's fine. A touch attack can look exactly like a Monk using Quivering Palm. A single strike causing an enemy to collapse at your feet without appearing to have actually done anything.

 

[Jhaelen]

Wat.
So, a Warblade 10 is a decent challenge for a group of four Warblade 9's? Or a level 9 Wizard, Warblade, Cleric, and Scout?

It is. That is, it is under the assumption that this is one of four similar encounters before the group's getting a rest (with the caveat that Warbladed don't really have any resources they need to recover besides hp).

 

[jasper]

except for the rule mistake the dm made, It sounds like you lived. So yes acceptable fight.

 

[Sekhmet]

It is. That is, it is under the assumption that this is one of four similar encounters before the group's getting a rest (with the caveat that Warbladed don't really have any resources they need to recover besides hp).

No, this is completely wrong. While the DMG suggests that four such encounters will use about 80% of your daily resources, combat like this would not even be close.
Why is that? The enemy Warblade 10 has only one chance to act per round, just as the characters do. Any group of four will annihilate a single enemy of their CR, simply be overwhelming his ability to cope with incoming damage, spells, and skills.

It isn't going to use 20% of your resources. It might not even use 5%. Supposing he takes his first action offensively against your "tank", and misses altogether, then gets mauled by your party's physical damage dealers. No resources are expended at all.

 

[Jhaelen]

Any group of four will annihilate a single enemy of their CR, simply be overwhelming his ability to cope with incoming damage, spells, and skills.

It isn't going to use 20% of your resources. It might not even use 5%.

No, this is completely wrong.



If the party annihilates a single enemy of their CR without expending any resources, you've picked the wrong enemy! Picking a random foe won't do it (unless you're lucky), but a carefully crafted encounter _will_ result in expended resources (unless you're exceptionally unlucky).
The best weapons in a DMs arsenal are monster templates and non-associated class levels.
E.g. check out what a Voidmind Werebear Warblade can do!

Supposing he takes his first action offensively against your "tank", and misses altogether, then gets mauled by your party's physical damage dealers. No resources are expended at all.

Now, supposing he takes his first action against your "nuker" and doesn't miss, he's just mauled your party's magical damage dealer

This can even work with monsters right out of the MM, e.g. a Hellcat is absolutely vicious!

Also, if every battle went identically, everyone would be bored senseless in no time. Variation is key, particularly when selecting the terrain.
In my game I have a party of _nine_ players. And it's _still_ possible to create solo enemies to challenge them without resorting to CRs higher than the effective party level.

It's arguably easier to do if you add a few 'minions' but it's doable.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

So find some way to get Fire Resistance on a caster and we're good to go?

Exactly. If being an arcanist is punishable by Death then that obviously means they cant have any wizards to fight "Mordo The Witch King". Of course...there's always the Spanish Inquisition. And not all arcanists are Mordo, some are Barney The Bawdy Bard. Can you imagine a culture that hates bards? That's barbaric (no insult to Barbarians), and dryer than Oscar Wilde.

In any case, is a 10th lvl guy NPC VS FOUR 9nth or 10th lvl characters Fair? And the fact he's short all the equipment a PC probably has?

No.

Well, its not "fair" for that lone 10th lvl NPC, but he's just supposed to die for your XP/Plot/Amusement. Most fights are stacked in the PCs favor, and so they arent "fair" at all. In fact, since a PC races CR=Class lvl, two equal lvl PCs fighting each other arent getting a "fair" fight.

 

[Empirate]

A Warblade 10, even a suboptimally-built one, is probably going to cost your 9th level party quite a few resources. Are your casters not going to cast anything to take him out? Isn't anybody going to take any damage whatsoever? Will consumable items, item charges, per-day-abilities or ammo not come into play at all? The Warblade will be a decent challenge if any of these conditions are not fulfilled.

A Shock Trooper Warblade 10 on flat ground will charge and likely maul a 9th level character regardless of class quite severely. Tank or no tank, your AC will not be able to keep the damage away at this level, especially with Shock Trooper. If even one guy in your party has a bad AC and no miss chance going, the Warblade is free to single out that guy.

Consider this scenario: Warblade wins initiative, charges and one-shots your flat-footed arcanist. Your skillmonkey/glass cannon has some unlucky rolls and fail to deal meaningful damage. Your CoDzilla buffs up. Your tank moves in and deals some more meaningless damage. On his next action, the Warblade punches your skillmonkey/glass cannon into single digit HP. The hurt guy tumbles out of there, afraid to die. Your CoDzilla moves into melee and hits the Warblade once, your tank hits him some more. The Warblade still has more than one-third of his HP left, but decides to get away while he still can. He uses Anklets of Translocation and ports to safety, heals up somewhere and comes back later.
Your party uses lots and lots of healing magic to get the hurt guys up again, and your CoDzilla blew a buffing spell. And you know what? You didn't even take out the other guy.

Even if the Warblade loses initiative (remember, Warblades normally have good Ini), he'll probably be able to shrug off whatever damage you can do to him - it's very hard to take out a Warblade in one round. Massive HP, good AC, and the save replacer maneuvers (not to speak of Iron Heart Surge) make sure that he will be able to hurt you back some.

OK, so you can fix him in a single, cheap Solid Fog or Web for a round or two - but what are you going to do to actually kill the guy? Spend more spells etc.? You just spent more resources. Wait until he comes out, then melee him? You just wasted a spell, plus melee with a Warblade above your level will get people hurt. Shoot him dead while he struggles with the BC? Show me how you can do enough damage using only archery/reserve feats/Eldritch Blast.


Long story short: Your 9th level party will be able to take out a Warblade 10 with relative ease. But you'll be forced to expend at least some limited resources to do so. Maybe it'll be a little less than 20% of what you have per day... but maybe it'll even be a little more.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

On a side note....how did your guy get in this coliseum fight anyway?
That's got to be a story full of wacky hijinks and hilarity.

I can totally see it...your guy in an arena, staring down this burly warrior and he thinks "How did I get into this mess?" in a voiceover.

*Trigger flashback/beginning of episode**