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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Empirate" data-source="post: 5666366" data-attributes="member: 78958">First off, let me say this thread is much, much more constructive than a lot of the debates I've seen on this issue. People are most certainly being excellent to each other most of the time.The only other thing I wanted to say is this: I just don't get what people are so concerned about with the 3.5 grappling rules. It doesn't even begin to compare to the headaches wildshape can give everyone at the table. Even a 1st level Cleric has to know at least 20 to 30 spells quite well if he wants to make an educated decision on what spells to memorize each day. A summoner needs to know his stuff excellently or risk his most powerful spells summoning a bunch of space-wasters instead of helpful allies. Do you know off the top of your head how actually turning undead (as opposed to spending turn attempts on other stuff) works?As a DM, these things are my daily bread and butter. Whole spell lists, dozens of monsters, feat chains, skill uses, attack of opportunity rules and slews of other rules stuff must be available in my brain all the time when we game. So the grapple rules are kinda complicated in 3.5? Dude, that's like 0.1 percent of the rules complexity I'm expected to master just to fulfill my everyday responsibilities as a DM. I couldn't care less for streamlined rules in this one department.It's been a long time since I had to read my grapple rules - but I do make a point of rereading rules over and over again. Basically, when I've finished reading through all my rulebooks, I start over again on a regular basis. Did Pathfinder lessen my workload in a perceptible way? Unh-unh. Maybe I could save myself a percent of effort here or there - after investing the time necessary to familiarize myself with every minute rules change that will throw me off. But nothing on the scale that would make this investment worthwhile.So for my own DMing needs, I'll stay 3.5. For me, Pathfinder might as well not exist. You know what the big difference between this rules change and the 3.0/3.5 startover is? When 3.5 came out, there wasn't that much 3.0 material that became invalidated, and you basically had to go along and make the change to 3.5 if you wanted new material. However, after years and years of 3.5, there's enough material there to keep me busy for decades. Pathfinder just doesn't have anything to offer me.I'm not dissing the system, I'm dissing the misconception that it was necessary to publish it at all.</blockquote>

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