Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
3.5e -- What REALLY needed fixing?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Derro" data-source="post: 4138802" data-attributes="member: 51010"><p>In the RAW, yes, but both the GMs I play under and myself took some steps to get around this. Reserve feats and spell mastery (not the Wizard ability but more of a dedicated multi-use spell slot) addressed this nicely.</p><p></p><p>Never a problem</p><p></p><p>Yes and no. As a GM I took to using the UA option of maximum ranks in a designated amount of skills. It was NPC building in general that was a real pain in the butt. I tend to hand wave stuff for NPCs just for the sake of getting things done expeditiously but that didn't make it much easier.</p><p></p><p>Yes and no again. Grappling could get confusing with multiple grapplers but if it was mano-e-mano or mano-e-monster it was never too much problem. AoOs were another case by case basis. Movement provokations, not an issue, other actions sometimes confusing. Combat Reflexes and multiple provokations throughout the round did sometimes get out of hand.</p><p></p><p>I didn't really have an issue with this until I started to think about it after seeing the SWSE system and playing d20 Modern where base attack tended to be lower. The worst offender in this case is the two-weapon fighter. There is a particular player in one of my games whose grasp of the rules is not great. Nearly every time his ranger would go into the full attack routine we'd have to break it down for him. I can see now where this is a stumbling block for newer players. Even as an experienced player I am willing to get rid of iterative attacks for singular, more potent attacks or maybe a feat or special ability to split your attacks ala flurry of blows or the like.</p><p></p><p>Yes and no. I think it's more reflective of the learning curve and knowledge of how your character works than anything else. </p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what the term means. Could someone explain please?</p><p></p><p>Never an issue. As a GM I Rule 0ed a "summoning sickness" of sorts early in 3.0 and it stuck with everybody I played with. And unless I'm mistaken outsiders summoned by another outsider with the Summon (Su) ability couldn't use their own Summon (Su) ability for the duration of their stay. Or is that an artifact of 3.0? </p><p></p><p>That's a build issue as opposed to a rule issue IMO. Fighters in particular need multi-classing and prestige classes to remain flavorful and interesting. I know that is a bit inflammatory of me to say since all classes should be viable throughout all there levels but seriously, if your character concept hasn't progressed past "dude in heavy armor with board and sword" by 10th level there is no amount of rule re-writes that are going to improve your play or enjoyment. Paizo's take is a little fancier but still pretty damn boring in my opinion. NPCs, sure, but players should be able to come up with something better for a character that has been running that long.</p><p></p><p>Ugh. Once or twice, sure, if it becomes a routine then it's a GMing issue not a rules issue. Routines, by their nature, are easy to counter and ones like this should be countered with extreme prejudice.</p><p></p><p>(shrug) It's a 1st level spell. It should be kinda crappy. Personally I've always gone the route of using Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Religion, etc.), Spellcraft and Detect Magic, consulting sages, and even Legend Lore. I think identify is just a throwback to the old days and there are much more interesting ways to find out about yr loot.</p><p></p><p>Craft points are a decent fix. I also scrawled up some rules for binding outsiders and elementals into objects to give them powers.</p><p></p><p>Whoa, daddy, did you ever say it there. That is just something endemic to D&D. I don't know what to do to fix that. I just take lots of notes and pay real close attention to my bookkeeping. What else can you do?</p><p></p><p>I think that Paizo did a pretty good job with this, taking the 4e route, and folding skills together. I've always thought that craft needed a severe overhaul both in its presentation and implementation. d20 Modern actually did a pretty good job with its concept of craft. There were like 6 or 7 well defined categories that performed whatever job you needed them to. Kinda like Knowledge. Check out the Modern SRD for what I'm talking about.</p><p></p><p>Never had a problem with this either way. Companions were always useful (sometimes they needed a hand with a feat or maybe a spell or magic item). Familiars just stayed out of combat. I found the real use of familiars is that they have <em>all of the skill ranks of their master and can therefore Aid Another on just about any skill check</em>. When I figured this out it blew my mind.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Things I don't like about 3.x:</p><p></p><p>-Reliance on magic items</p><p>-Diminishing returns on feats</p><p>-NPC construction too time consuming</p><p>-A freakin' rule for everything which devolves in rules-lawyery way too often</p><p>-Skill synergies: nice idea, poor implementation</p><p>-Rules cascading: optional rules that rely too much on modifying existing rules instead of just changing them entirely OR supplemental rules that are superior to original rules but require re-working pre-existing assumptions. That's a bit unclear I know. I'll dig up some examples if anybody cares.</p><p>-I'm sure there are more rolling around in my head but nothing springs immediately to mind. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and please don't interpret my itemizing above as disagreeing with your opinions. I'm simply conveying my experience based on what you stated some of your problems were.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Derro, post: 4138802, member: 51010"] In the RAW, yes, but both the GMs I play under and myself took some steps to get around this. Reserve feats and spell mastery (not the Wizard ability but more of a dedicated multi-use spell slot) addressed this nicely. Never a problem Yes and no. As a GM I took to using the UA option of maximum ranks in a designated amount of skills. It was NPC building in general that was a real pain in the butt. I tend to hand wave stuff for NPCs just for the sake of getting things done expeditiously but that didn't make it much easier. Yes and no again. Grappling could get confusing with multiple grapplers but if it was mano-e-mano or mano-e-monster it was never too much problem. AoOs were another case by case basis. Movement provokations, not an issue, other actions sometimes confusing. Combat Reflexes and multiple provokations throughout the round did sometimes get out of hand. I didn't really have an issue with this until I started to think about it after seeing the SWSE system and playing d20 Modern where base attack tended to be lower. The worst offender in this case is the two-weapon fighter. There is a particular player in one of my games whose grasp of the rules is not great. Nearly every time his ranger would go into the full attack routine we'd have to break it down for him. I can see now where this is a stumbling block for newer players. Even as an experienced player I am willing to get rid of iterative attacks for singular, more potent attacks or maybe a feat or special ability to split your attacks ala flurry of blows or the like. Yes and no. I think it's more reflective of the learning curve and knowledge of how your character works than anything else. I'm not sure what the term means. Could someone explain please? Never an issue. As a GM I Rule 0ed a "summoning sickness" of sorts early in 3.0 and it stuck with everybody I played with. And unless I'm mistaken outsiders summoned by another outsider with the Summon (Su) ability couldn't use their own Summon (Su) ability for the duration of their stay. Or is that an artifact of 3.0? That's a build issue as opposed to a rule issue IMO. Fighters in particular need multi-classing and prestige classes to remain flavorful and interesting. I know that is a bit inflammatory of me to say since all classes should be viable throughout all there levels but seriously, if your character concept hasn't progressed past "dude in heavy armor with board and sword" by 10th level there is no amount of rule re-writes that are going to improve your play or enjoyment. Paizo's take is a little fancier but still pretty damn boring in my opinion. NPCs, sure, but players should be able to come up with something better for a character that has been running that long. Ugh. Once or twice, sure, if it becomes a routine then it's a GMing issue not a rules issue. Routines, by their nature, are easy to counter and ones like this should be countered with extreme prejudice. (shrug) It's a 1st level spell. It should be kinda crappy. Personally I've always gone the route of using Bardic Knowledge, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Religion, etc.), Spellcraft and Detect Magic, consulting sages, and even Legend Lore. I think identify is just a throwback to the old days and there are much more interesting ways to find out about yr loot. Craft points are a decent fix. I also scrawled up some rules for binding outsiders and elementals into objects to give them powers. Whoa, daddy, did you ever say it there. That is just something endemic to D&D. I don't know what to do to fix that. I just take lots of notes and pay real close attention to my bookkeeping. What else can you do? I think that Paizo did a pretty good job with this, taking the 4e route, and folding skills together. I've always thought that craft needed a severe overhaul both in its presentation and implementation. d20 Modern actually did a pretty good job with its concept of craft. There were like 6 or 7 well defined categories that performed whatever job you needed them to. Kinda like Knowledge. Check out the Modern SRD for what I'm talking about. Never had a problem with this either way. Companions were always useful (sometimes they needed a hand with a feat or maybe a spell or magic item). Familiars just stayed out of combat. I found the real use of familiars is that they have [I]all of the skill ranks of their master and can therefore Aid Another on just about any skill check[/I]. When I figured this out it blew my mind. Things I don't like about 3.x: -Reliance on magic items -Diminishing returns on feats -NPC construction too time consuming -A freakin' rule for everything which devolves in rules-lawyery way too often -Skill synergies: nice idea, poor implementation -Rules cascading: optional rules that rely too much on modifying existing rules instead of just changing them entirely OR supplemental rules that are superior to original rules but require re-working pre-existing assumptions. That's a bit unclear I know. I'll dig up some examples if anybody cares. -I'm sure there are more rolling around in my head but nothing springs immediately to mind. Yes, and please don't interpret my itemizing above as disagreeing with your opinions. I'm simply conveying my experience based on what you stated some of your problems were. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
3.5e -- What REALLY needed fixing?
Top