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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 712859" data-attributes="member: 3146">Re: High-level FightersIf this is a regular occurence in your game then you've got other problems that don't involve fighters being a weak class. I can't think of any monsters in the monster manual with enough DR to make a well designed fighter with a +3 sword useless. Let alone any monsters with a CR of 11 or less. And if seventh level parties are fighting anything with a CR of 12+, you should expect to lose. (At that point, the EL system says your party is a reasonable challenge for the monster and that you might take 20% of his resources or so <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Again, if the fighters are dying regularly at long range before being able to close they you've got problems which don't involve fighters being a weak class. Assuming that your DM is throwing reasonable challenges at the party in question, and that you have a reasonable level of magic, I can only suggest a lack of teamwork as the possible explanation for this problem. If the wizard casts fly on the fighter, the fighter should be able to get to most any enemy. Etc.And any fighter worth his sword ought to have a decent ranged weapon for times when it's necessary.I've seen lots of modules with situations that are best resolved by the judicious application of sharp objects to vital locations too. In my experience, those situations are far more common than situations requiring magic. Since wizards don't have martial weapons, by the logic used,  they must be useless too. . . .I'd respectfully suggest that this is your problem right here. Every character class needs magical items to survive at high levels. Fighters feel a lack of magic items more acutely than other classes because they don't have spells or other class abilities to fall back on and substitute for that lack but a lack of magic items hurts all classes.Any wizard without save increasing items will fall to the first disintegrate, Finger or Death, or Destruction just as surely as the fighter will fall to a hold person. Come to think of it, the fighter might just succumb to a disintegrate, or destruction without save enhancing items. A cloak or vest of Resistance is a non-negotiable piece of equipment for any character above level 6.The same is true of the fighter's need for magical swords and armor. Wizards and clerics need headbands of Intellect, Periapts of Wisdom, bracers of armor, rings of deflection, wands of magic missile (or cure light wounds), and pearls of power every bit as much as fighters need magical weapons and armor.Just like every other class's class abilities won't cut it. That's hardly unique to fighters.You could also either:A. Play in a campaign with a standard amount (plus or minus 30 to 40% or so) of magic items.orB. Use classes from a system like WoT that doesn't assume the same level of magic.(Note that Leadership, coteries of low level fighters, and tactical skills would do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems you're discussing--the low level fighters would bog down combat and get annihilated in area effect spells. And the tactical skills would help fighters where they're already good--in dishing out damage--without giving them the ability to walk through walls of force or resist hold person spells.)I don't know what gives you the idea that D&D is a magical free for all. There is certainly magic. That's what teamwork is for. The wizard can disintegrate the wall of force; the cleric can cast remove paralysis on the fighter. There's still plenty for the fighter to do--even without using his cape of the montebank to dimension door past the wall of force. (Or doing something similarly creative).</blockquote>

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