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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 719904" data-attributes="member: 704">These comparisons mean nothing.And for the most part, I mean that literally.  Each campaign is as individual as the DM running it.  And the creatures and tactics favored by the DM are what determines most of what is effective and what is not.  The second part of it is directly related to how much magic items are handed out by the DM.First, lets look at the magic item end of things.I have seen people post about warrior types doing damage per round within all sorts of ranges, from 20-50 to 75-100.  I beleive that those numbers arent as dependent on what level the fighter is as they are on other factors:1)  What kind of Point buy created the character?2)  What kind of magical gear and / or assistance does he have?To better illustrate my point, lets ask a  quick question here:For an 8th level Fighter, what kind of magical equipment do you expect him to have?Warrior types seem to benefit much more from a campaign with high magical items and point buy then Spell casters, especially Wizards and Sorcerers, who have no real business being in melee.  A fighter with 15 Str and 13 Con, with a + 2 weapon that he is not specialized in is one thing.  A fither with 18 Str and 16 Con, with a +3 weapon, operating under Bulls Strength and Endurance and a Prayer spell is quite another.And other then Haste, what sort of buffs are there that make the Wizard a more powerful spell caster in the PHB?  The majority of buff spells either enhance melee ability, enhance defensive ability, or protect against magical attacks.  There is no spell that I can think of which makes a spell generally more effective.And now lets look at the DM styles.  Another consideration is the sort of campaign your playing in.When I DM, I tend to err on the side of Stingy with the magical items, especially those that are directly useful in combat.  It takes a long time for the +1 weapons and armor to show up.  I am more likely to hand out a Ring of Jumping or Spider Climbing then a Ring of Protection.  I either use 28 Point buy or the 4d6 drop lowest, depending on what the players prefer.  If they choose Dice, I dont typically allow any attempts at re-rolling unless the character is grossly low in the stats.I also tend to use Orcs, Goblins, and the like longer then most other DM's.  I use them numbers, arm them reasonably, and support them with "Leutenant" types (often a low level caster or Ogre like Tank).  In such a campaign, Rogues do nicely because of Sneak Attack.  Fireball is a very effective spell over a longer period.  Player AC tends to be low, but the opponents they typically face have a low attack bonus.  The campaign runs well because when considered in and of its self, its balanced.I have a friend who runs a much higher powered game.  He uses a point buy in the High 30's / Low 40's.  A high plus bonus is typically available on the weapons available.  He allows the players to choose non PHB races (one of his characters is a Minotaur Paladin).  His re-worked spell casting system is based on spell points, so high damage spells can be cast much more frequently when needed.  Every fighter type had a Girdle of Strength, and the corresponding item for Constitution.    He likes to use very high powered monsters, often of custom design.  There are big numbers all over the place, for both the warriors and the wizard types.  Amazingly enough (at least to me), the game runs smoothly enough, because within considered in and of its self, the game is balanced.But if you were to compare one of my typical characters to one of his typical characters, the ones from my game would seem pathetic.And even if you list every available buff and magic item for every character you use in these comparisons, someone is going to take issue with it.  And they will do so because to them the character is either too strong or too weak.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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