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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5025034" data-attributes="member: 957">Clearly 1E and 2E were distinctly similar.&nbsp; But of all flavors of D&amp;D, I'd say that 3E is the outlier.&nbsp; 4E is almost certainly second place.&nbsp; But 3E was the furthest removed.&nbsp; Yes, 3E still had Vancian magic and magic missiles that automatically hit, but the play experience has a lot in common.Obviously my personal opinion is that it was the very things made 3E an outlier that made it so much better.&nbsp; 4E, to me, is a huge step backward.&nbsp; I loved 1E and dove into 2E when it came out.&nbsp; Then I found better games and never looked back.But at the end of the day the name &quot;Dungeons and Dragons&quot; carries a ton of weight.&nbsp; 4E is huge.&nbsp; Easily bigger than everything else combined.&nbsp; But there are lots of really good games out there.&nbsp; If the exact 4E game mechanics had been released by as &quot;Age of Heroes&quot; by some other publisher, it would not have a fraction of the success. (Same statement applies to 3E nine years ago)&nbsp; And pick some other reasonably decent fantasy RPG from the past couple years and imagine an alternate universe where it was called &quot;Dungeons &amp; Dragons 4E&quot; and you probably increase its initial sales run by a couple orders of magnitude.&nbsp; So the question: &quot;Is 4E popular?&quot; is not really the right one.&nbsp; Of course it is popular.&nbsp; The question is, does it really reach the level it could?I think it fell far short.&nbsp; Sure, a lot of people bought the core.&nbsp; *I* bought the core.&nbsp; So what?I'm a huge 3E fan.&nbsp; And in the end of the 3E era I really wasn't buying much because I already had everything.&nbsp; It was done.&nbsp; And I was also really ready for some new innovation.&nbsp; When 4E was announced, there was the typical rush of denouncements as &quot;another edition money grab&quot;.&nbsp; I was front and center saying &quot;Bring it on!! I'm ready!!&quot;&nbsp; It didn't take long at all before I realized they were going way in the wrong direction for me.&nbsp; (And by the way, to all of you who insisted before the release that I was rushing to judgment and making assessments without the full context of the game, you stand very corrected.&nbsp; &quot;Full context&quot; exposed was exactly as expected.)But the point is, I was eager with money burning a hole in my pocket.&nbsp; And, the initial core three aside, not one further dime has gone WotC's way.&nbsp; If I was rare, then so what.&nbsp; But I'm not.&nbsp; Yeah, 4E is still the monster and remains bigger than everything else combined.&nbsp; But it still lost a whole lot of its ready and waiting audience.&nbsp; It could have been a lot bigger.It is funny how the spin goes back and forth.&nbsp; You'll get one thread proclaiming how 4E brought in players that didn't like 3E.&nbsp; And then you'll get another thread explaining that 3E does better in acceptance polls because such a great majority of 4E players used to play 3E.&nbsp; The validity of the polls is not relevant here, it is just the spin of interpretation I'm talking about.A year and a half in to 4E and the shine is off the apple.&nbsp; Of course they are huge fans out there.&nbsp; I don't question in the least the absolute sincerity of that, much less the legitimacy of it.&nbsp; But I'm constantly hearing, &quot;we tried it for a session...&quot;, &quot;we tried it for six months...&quot;, &quot;we tried it for a year...&quot;, &quot;... and we decided it wasn't for us&quot;.&nbsp; And I remain convinced that the great majority of &quot;new blood&quot;, was really new blood so much as &quot;latest fad-ers&quot; And they quietly move on to the next fad.&nbsp; Exceptions not withstanding....4E has tons and tons of fans.&nbsp; But it could have had many many more.&nbsp; And when taken in large groups, the most long term loyal and the most consistent buyers are very much disproportionately represented by the &quot;wasn't for us&quot; segment.I do have to give them credit for the DDI though.&nbsp; It is a great business model.&nbsp; Sign up to have your account automatically billed once a month.&nbsp; That is a great, reliable revenue stream and doesn't require a consumer taking the initiative to lay their money on the counter over and over and say &quot;I'll buy that new book&quot;.&nbsp; I'm sure it certainly off-sets a chunk of the financial implications of the problems.But, yes, I agree with you that 4E is not remotely against people who like D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5025034, member: 957"] Clearly 1E and 2E were distinctly similar. But of all flavors of D&D, I'd say that 3E is the outlier. 4E is almost certainly second place. But 3E was the furthest removed. Yes, 3E still had Vancian magic and magic missiles that automatically hit, but the play experience has a lot in common. Obviously my personal opinion is that it was the very things made 3E an outlier that made it so much better. 4E, to me, is a huge step backward. I loved 1E and dove into 2E when it came out. Then I found better games and never looked back. But at the end of the day the name "Dungeons and Dragons" carries a ton of weight. 4E is huge. Easily bigger than everything else combined. But there are lots of really good games out there. If the exact 4E game mechanics had been released by as "Age of Heroes" by some other publisher, it would not have a fraction of the success. (Same statement applies to 3E nine years ago) And pick some other reasonably decent fantasy RPG from the past couple years and imagine an alternate universe where it was called "Dungeons & Dragons 4E" and you probably increase its initial sales run by a couple orders of magnitude. So the question: "Is 4E popular?" is not really the right one. Of course it is popular. The question is, does it really reach the level it could? I think it fell far short. Sure, a lot of people bought the core. *I* bought the core. So what? I'm a huge 3E fan. And in the end of the 3E era I really wasn't buying much because I already had everything. It was done. And I was also really ready for some new innovation. When 4E was announced, there was the typical rush of denouncements as "another edition money grab". I was front and center saying "Bring it on!! I'm ready!!" It didn't take long at all before I realized they were going way in the wrong direction for me. (And by the way, to all of you who insisted before the release that I was rushing to judgment and making assessments without the full context of the game, you stand very corrected. "Full context" exposed was exactly as expected.) But the point is, I was eager with money burning a hole in my pocket. And, the initial core three aside, not one further dime has gone WotC's way. If I was rare, then so what. But I'm not. Yeah, 4E is still the monster and remains bigger than everything else combined. But it still lost a whole lot of its ready and waiting audience. It could have been a lot bigger. It is funny how the spin goes back and forth. You'll get one thread proclaiming how 4E brought in players that didn't like 3E. And then you'll get another thread explaining that 3E does better in acceptance polls because such a great majority of 4E players used to play 3E. The validity of the polls is not relevant here, it is just the spin of interpretation I'm talking about. A year and a half in to 4E and the shine is off the apple. Of course they are huge fans out there. I don't question in the least the absolute sincerity of that, much less the legitimacy of it. But I'm constantly hearing, "we tried it for a session...", "we tried it for six months...", "we tried it for a year...", "... and we decided it wasn't for us". And I remain convinced that the great majority of "new blood", was really new blood so much as "latest fad-ers" And they quietly move on to the next fad. Exceptions not withstanding.... 4E has tons and tons of fans. But it could have had many many more. And when taken in large groups, the most long term loyal and the most consistent buyers are very much disproportionately represented by the "wasn't for us" segment. I do have to give them credit for the DDI though. It is a great business model. Sign up to have your account automatically billed once a month. That is a great, reliable revenue stream and doesn't require a consumer taking the initiative to lay their money on the counter over and over and say "I'll buy that new book". I'm sure it certainly off-sets a chunk of the financial implications of the problems. But, yes, I agree with you that 4E is not remotely against people who like D&D. [/QUOTE]

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