Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="boxstop7" data-source="post: 1745200" data-attributes="member: 8804">This one's kinda long-ish...WARNING:  The following post will contain some generalized statements.  These are made in the interest of furthering discussion.  I am well aware that stereotypes and generalizations, while possessing a modicum of truth, are in no way accurate assessments of an entire group of people.  There, now the lawyers should be happy.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> The only issue I've had with "balance" in 3.0/3.5 is players wanting to pull options from every available resource to create ridiculously powerful and front-loaded characters (I will call these players "powergamers" for the sake of discussion).  I feel this "unbalances" the game when other players are uninterested in "powergaming", and instead decide to create characters they will enjoy playing, even if those characters have multiple weaknesses.  This issue has been a constant one in the games I've run to this point, and it's been difficult for me to get a good handle on it at times.  I've resorted to telling my players up-front, "I reward style, role-playing and creativity more than I reward 'powergaming', so please be aware of this."  I've pushed some players away in doing this.  But I don't view their departure as a loss.  I've managed to keep the players who are interested in the type of game I like to run.  And we commence enjoying ourselves.However, I have noticed a common thread in the "powergamers" to which I've had exposure:  they all grew up playing CRPGs rather than P-n-P D&D.  In my experience with CRPGs, I've been able to create characters that were basically gods walking the earth, and I was able to do it quickly.  And I firmly believe these players bring those same expectations to P-n-P D&D.  As an example, I'll summarized a conversation I had with one of my players (who's played CRPGs almost exclusively):We've had some problems with the game, and we're going to start anew.  However, we'll be starting at 4th level rather than 8th level this time.  He has a ranger, and he'd like to keep the basic character.  But he asked me if he could make some changes, and he wants to drop the ranger spells and animal companion for a few more feats.  My response was, "So you basically want a fighter?"  He said, "Yeah, but let me explain..."  The long and short of it is that he basically wants all the feats a fighter gets, but he wants the ranger's free access to the two-weapon feat chain so he doesn't have to worry about rearranging his ability scores to meet the prerequisites otherwise.  His comment: "I'll get it faster this way.  When I think of a 4th level chararacter, that character should be able to take about half an enemy's hit points in one swing."  I was floored.  He freely and readily admits that he's impatient and  simply doesn't want to "follow the rules" to meet prerequisites and wait through the fighter levels to gain the two-weapon chain.  He wants it now, and for free.  He also said that the ranger's spellcasting "doesn't seem to be any part of the Ranger class. It looks like they just tacked it on as a bonus because they couldn't find anything else to throw in."  He followed that up with "It just almost seems to me that they really limited the spell casting for a Ranger. I mean at fourth level I get the ability of spellcasting so therefore I should be able to cast something. But if my Wisdom is lower than 12 then I get nothing even though a wisdom of 11 would allow me to cast 1st level spells. And Ranger spells suck anyway.  The druid gets mad spells. The druid gets spells to cast even if the wisdom score is only an eleven. If I have a wisdom at 11 as a ranger I get nothing."  My counterargument: "Druids are spellcasters with moderate combat ability, like clerics, and spellcasting is the PRIMARY ability of the class.  If the druid has a wisdom of 11, he can still only cast 0 and 1 level spells.  that's it.  he'll never cast 2nd level spells until his wisdom hits 12.  as spellcasting is secondary class ability for rangers, the requirements are slightly more stringent.  read the spells section.  "at 4th level, a ranger gains the *ability* to cast spells".  *ability*.  it's not a right or privilege.  it's an additional class ability.  if a player hasn't structured his character to take advantage of that ability, that's the player's fault and no one else's, in my opinion."  He then proceeded to complain about his "low" ability scores.  His score array:  17,15,15,14,12,12.  I told him, "Those scores are incredible.  You're above average in everything.  I (censored for Eric's grandma) myself when I roll scores like that."  He goes, "But then why doesn't it seem like I am, I see the 12's as being pretty low."  It was at this point that I started banging my head against the desk and simply told him that, in my games, he *will not* be able to create a character that is a god on earth, or even one that is good at everything.  I see the above issues as the biggest problem of "balance" in modern D&D.  If players want to do something immensely cool in the game, and there isn't a rule to govern it, just house-rule it.  So long as you remain consistent, what's the problem with house-ruling things?  In the situation you described, I probably would've allowed your player to shield the other character at the expense of losing his own turn that round (since he wanted to do something out of turn).  That's a very selfless and team-oriented move, in my opinion, and I'll never penalize a player for playing that way.  I guess it really comes down to "Do you favor style and flow or do you favor following the letter of the law?"- Jason</blockquote>

Verification