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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jackelope King" data-source="post: 2549429" data-attributes="member: 31454">Well, I'll point out that the absolute first thing I posted was a counterpoint to your idea that players don't do anything for a game with an example from my own experience. That said, I do appologize for suggesting that you were only running the game for your own enjoyment. I was projecting my experience with bad DMs onto you based on what you wrote, and not on your qualities as a DM.Did you read the first response I made to you where I specifically gave an example of the group I ran in 3E? You might want to ammend this response in light of what I wrote there.And I never disagreed with that. I did disagree with your assumption that the game must put the DM above the players. That is all.Saying "it is just that simple" doesn't make it true.I never implied that you did such things, and I appologize if my comments came off as such. However, I think that the "lack of DM support within the 3e rules" is a myth at best, and I have never seen a player try to "dictate aspects of the game that are within the bounds of DM responsibility", unless you imply that DM responsbility includes the PC's actions. I don't believe that you mean that, however.And the problem isn't that this sort of adjudication is possible: the problem is when the game swings back to an exercise in creating rules on the spot or when the rules encourage the DM to assert authority over players as a method to run the game. I have no problem with someone saying, "No, you can't trip a snake" or "No cleaving a bag of rats", and as you said, most players don't. Many of those rules loop holes exist as nothing more than a curiosity in the system and have never actually impacted gameplay. I do not think that a DM should be done away with, but I also do not think that a good DM should be someone who routinely changes the rules for little or a poorly-reasoned purpose.That's why finding a good middle ground is important, and not sucumbing to either side of the slippery slope. 3E and d20 as a whole are pretty good in regards to finding a happy middle, but they could also be better. However, as someone pointed out above, 3E does a pretty good job of letting even a so-so DM run a good game. I don't think that's a bad thing either.What, his hat of d02? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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