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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 2551496" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>I can explain how I am a referee easily. As the DM, I set the stage BEFORE gameplay starts. I have a pretty good idea of what's where and what the situation is before the players sit down. Once gameplay starts however, I do not feel I should change rules. Before and after the game is perfectly acceptable, but, once we've sat down to game, the rules that the players understand to be in effect at the beginning of the session STAY in effect until the end of the session. Now, if one of those 1% events comes up in my game, unlike a referee for soccer, I do have to make a ruling to keep the game moving. However, as a group, we've decided on a method for resolution. Event occurs, players make their arguements, I rule one way or the other, game moves on. After the session, we can discuss the ruling ad nauseum, but, in the game, getting things moving is more important. Now, my players trust me enough to know that I'm ONLY going to do this in the 1 in a 100 cases where it needs to be done.</p><p></p><p>For the other 99 cases, I follow the RAW or any house rules we've agreed to before the session begins. In that way, nearly all the time, I am purely a referee. As was mentioned earlier, I have no vested interest in the outcome of any particular action. Like many others here, I've run into one unbelievable DM's fiat ruling after another. </p><p></p><p>Just to recap</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with almost all of that. Except the part about DIRECTING a cooperative story. In my game, the players direct the story, not me. If I'm directing the story, that means that I no longer am disinterested in the outcome. If you direct something, you have to direct it TO somewhere. I couldn't care less how the story comes out. That's the player's job. And, if directing a story means that I have to create new rules on the fly, then perhaps my story isn't as good as I think it is. </p><p></p><p>Like the example of the undispellable trap. How dare the players use the abilities of their characters to get around my idea. Nope, by Gum, they are going to solve my riddle or rot. No shortcuts for you, peasant! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p>I refuse, absolutely refuse, to play in that style of game anymore. If the DM is incapable of challenging the players without cheating (ie rewriting the rules) then he or she shouldn't be DMing. </p><p></p><p>Do DM's have the right to say no? Absolutely. As I said, my role as campaign creator occurs between sessions. That's when you tell your players that they can't play this or that because it doesn't fit into your game. While running a Scarred Lands campaign, I had a player playing a Forsaken Elf barbarian (long story). He came to me sometime later and wanted to play a fairly unpronounceable PrC from the BOED, some sort of god touched elven barbarian. Got all sorts of divine style abilities. Only one problem though. The Elven god in SL is dead (sort of). In my game, he was all dead. The Elves were dying off because of it. Allowing this would require major rewriting of established campaign facts, something I wasn't willing to do. The fact that the elf god was dead was known by all, so, it couldn't be added. </p><p></p><p>Now, I have no problems with that and the player, after whining for a while, understood my point as well. However, what I didn't do was allow him to play the PrC and then turn around and change the rules of the PrC down the road without any input from him.</p><p></p><p>That's why I consider myself a referee (in the soccer sense). Watch a soccer game sometime. Soccer refs have a great deal of latitude regarding the rules. Is that a foul? A yellow card? A red card? Offside? The list goes on. The rules are there to be used, but, each ref interprets the rules slightly differently. The example of the jumping tumbler above illustrates that perfectly. At no point in that discussion was someone suggesting that a simple Dex check should replace skill checks. The exact interpretation of the rules was different, but, it was still the same rules being used.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 2551496, member: 22779"] I can explain how I am a referee easily. As the DM, I set the stage BEFORE gameplay starts. I have a pretty good idea of what's where and what the situation is before the players sit down. Once gameplay starts however, I do not feel I should change rules. Before and after the game is perfectly acceptable, but, once we've sat down to game, the rules that the players understand to be in effect at the beginning of the session STAY in effect until the end of the session. Now, if one of those 1% events comes up in my game, unlike a referee for soccer, I do have to make a ruling to keep the game moving. However, as a group, we've decided on a method for resolution. Event occurs, players make their arguements, I rule one way or the other, game moves on. After the session, we can discuss the ruling ad nauseum, but, in the game, getting things moving is more important. Now, my players trust me enough to know that I'm ONLY going to do this in the 1 in a 100 cases where it needs to be done. For the other 99 cases, I follow the RAW or any house rules we've agreed to before the session begins. In that way, nearly all the time, I am purely a referee. As was mentioned earlier, I have no vested interest in the outcome of any particular action. Like many others here, I've run into one unbelievable DM's fiat ruling after another. Just to recap I agree with almost all of that. Except the part about DIRECTING a cooperative story. In my game, the players direct the story, not me. If I'm directing the story, that means that I no longer am disinterested in the outcome. If you direct something, you have to direct it TO somewhere. I couldn't care less how the story comes out. That's the player's job. And, if directing a story means that I have to create new rules on the fly, then perhaps my story isn't as good as I think it is. Like the example of the undispellable trap. How dare the players use the abilities of their characters to get around my idea. Nope, by Gum, they are going to solve my riddle or rot. No shortcuts for you, peasant! :) I refuse, absolutely refuse, to play in that style of game anymore. If the DM is incapable of challenging the players without cheating (ie rewriting the rules) then he or she shouldn't be DMing. Do DM's have the right to say no? Absolutely. As I said, my role as campaign creator occurs between sessions. That's when you tell your players that they can't play this or that because it doesn't fit into your game. While running a Scarred Lands campaign, I had a player playing a Forsaken Elf barbarian (long story). He came to me sometime later and wanted to play a fairly unpronounceable PrC from the BOED, some sort of god touched elven barbarian. Got all sorts of divine style abilities. Only one problem though. The Elven god in SL is dead (sort of). In my game, he was all dead. The Elves were dying off because of it. Allowing this would require major rewriting of established campaign facts, something I wasn't willing to do. The fact that the elf god was dead was known by all, so, it couldn't be added. Now, I have no problems with that and the player, after whining for a while, understood my point as well. However, what I didn't do was allow him to play the PrC and then turn around and change the rules of the PrC down the road without any input from him. That's why I consider myself a referee (in the soccer sense). Watch a soccer game sometime. Soccer refs have a great deal of latitude regarding the rules. Is that a foul? A yellow card? A red card? Offside? The list goes on. The rules are there to be used, but, each ref interprets the rules slightly differently. The example of the jumping tumbler above illustrates that perfectly. At no point in that discussion was someone suggesting that a simple Dex check should replace skill checks. The exact interpretation of the rules was different, but, it was still the same rules being used. [/QUOTE]
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