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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 2583174" data-attributes="member: 5143">You are right.&nbsp; However, most modifiers CAN be spotted, even if they may be difficult.&nbsp; Yes, some things are hidden.&nbsp; Basically, I see that there are visible modifiers and invisible modifiers.&nbsp; Most modifiers are visible and the player will know about them in advance.&nbsp; Sometimes there are thing hidden or things that change after you start climbing.&nbsp; This is acceptable.On the other hand, just making a wall that has a -20 circumstance penalty to climb it because &quot;it's a living wall and doesn't want to be climbed&quot; is kinda silly unless the player after he tries to climb has a good idea that something is horribly wrong.&nbsp; i.e. &quot;You start climbing the ordinary looking wall, then suddenly, it shifts beneath you, all hand holds vanishing and becoming slick.&nbsp; You fall to the ground.&quot;&nbsp; No problem with this.&nbsp; I have a problem when this same situation plays out as &quot;You try to climb.&nbsp; You fail.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;But, I made a 30 on my climb check and it's an ordinary wall!&quot;&nbsp; &quot;You don't know why, you just can't climb it.&quot;One method confuses the player, makes them think you are just using DM fiat to prevent them from getting to where they want to go, or worse yet, have no idea how the rules work so are making thing up off the top of their heads.&nbsp; I know I personally hate it when a DM says &quot;well, it should be hard to climb...he can make DC 30 on a 10...that seems too easy, I'll make it 35.&quot;They should be able to do it the same way we can do it in real life.&nbsp; See a hill, you probably know about the chance of you getting over it in your car or whether or not you are too out of shape to walk to the other side of it.&nbsp; I know there are things I can't climb and likely won't try.&nbsp; Sometimes things are deceptive in how difficult they are, but we can make a close estimate.The point is, if a wall should be DC 15 to climb in the PHB, there should be a darn good reason for it to be harder than DC 20.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 2583174, member: 5143"] You are right. However, most modifiers CAN be spotted, even if they may be difficult. Yes, some things are hidden. Basically, I see that there are visible modifiers and invisible modifiers. Most modifiers are visible and the player will know about them in advance. Sometimes there are thing hidden or things that change after you start climbing. This is acceptable. On the other hand, just making a wall that has a -20 circumstance penalty to climb it because "it's a living wall and doesn't want to be climbed" is kinda silly unless the player after he tries to climb has a good idea that something is horribly wrong. i.e. "You start climbing the ordinary looking wall, then suddenly, it shifts beneath you, all hand holds vanishing and becoming slick. You fall to the ground." No problem with this. I have a problem when this same situation plays out as "You try to climb. You fail." "But, I made a 30 on my climb check and it's an ordinary wall!" "You don't know why, you just can't climb it." One method confuses the player, makes them think you are just using DM fiat to prevent them from getting to where they want to go, or worse yet, have no idea how the rules work so are making thing up off the top of their heads. I know I personally hate it when a DM says "well, it should be hard to climb...he can make DC 30 on a 10...that seems too easy, I'll make it 35." They should be able to do it the same way we can do it in real life. See a hill, you probably know about the chance of you getting over it in your car or whether or not you are too out of shape to walk to the other side of it. I know there are things I can't climb and likely won't try. Sometimes things are deceptive in how difficult they are, but we can make a close estimate. The point is, if a wall should be DC 15 to climb in the PHB, there should be a darn good reason for it to be harder than DC 20. [/QUOTE]

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