D&D 3E/3.5 3e to 4e conversion - general guidelines

[S'mon]

So, I've been working on converting Paizo's 3.5e Adventure Path 'Curse of the Crimson Throne' (some spoilers below) to 4e D&D, and I've come up with some general principles/guidelines: The most general point is that threat level should look similar - an EL 3 encounter in 3e is expected to be roughly as challenging as a Level 3 encounter in 4e. I'm also finding it works best to take it that the 4e PCs be the same level as in 3e - ie don't make my 2009 mistake of assuming 1st level 4e PCs are functionally like 4th level 3e PCs.

In general with the AP conversion I'm finding that 4e monster statting rules work very well for this 'story' based play mode, whereas IME they often struggle in status-quo sandbox mode. I find 3e the opposite btw!

I'm generally finding that:
1) Once the PCs have a few levels, most NPCs look to convert best to 4e at '3e level+4'; for monsters it looks more like 'hit dice+4'. At very low level it's more like
PC Level - NPC 4e Level
1 3e Level+1
2 3e Level+2
3 3e Level+3
But this will need tweaking for plot importance etc. In general it's easy to threaten low level 4e PCs and a simple 1:1 level translation will often work, but after ca 3rd level this will make the NPCs too weak to threaten. Usually the NPCs' level should work out to be within 3-4 of the PCs' level at the time of the combat encounter.
2) If there are more than half a dozen creatures in an encounter then some convert best as minions. If they are very low level then they need extra levels, up to +8; keep an eye on the 3e EL to get a similar threat level overall.
3) There are a few obvious 'name' characters like Sabina Merrin in CoCTC that convert best as Elites at '3e level = 4e level'. Elite status comes with a huge wad of hp and is best reserved for NPCs with some 'plot protection' - it ensures they won't die fast which is good if you want/need to keep them alive, but risks tediousness if overused.
4) Solos - in principle a lone 3e creature of CR 5 makes a 4e level 5 Solo. These kinds of encounters should be rare though; often better to use an elite + lower level standard or minion allies to fill out the XP budget.
5) Statting needs to be thematic, not literal. Decide
(a) 4e Role & Level - this gives you the base 4e stats
(b) what is the interesting thing about this person/monster: base its powers around that.

 

[S'mon]

Here's a simple example - the baseline Grey Maidens. They first appear in Book 2 of Curse of the Crimson Throne, as 2nd level Fighters. The PCs at this time are expected to be around 5th level, so statting them as 6th level standard Soldiers works well. I tweaked their baseline 4e stats to raise AC slightly, reflecting their plate armour & heavy shield (base 22 > 23), lowering base Fortitude 2 points and Will 1 point. They are Fighter types so I give them a marking power, combat superiority, plus a recharge power strike/knockdown type power. To reflect their fanatacism they get an orc style basic attack on falling to 0 hp.
CoCT doesn't give stats for Grey Maiden leaders, but to keep the encounter interesting a sergeant of slightly higher level, 7th or 8th, and some Leader powers would work well - thinking about that currently!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

When thinking of converting 3e (or earlier) adventures to 4e, I usually try to set up "encounter days". I don't want there to be more than five combat encounters in a day.

This can be problematic for a large dungeon. Even a relatively small dungeon like Spellgard Tower (which is actually a 4e adventure) becomes large in 4e. I'm finishing up running that adventure now, and split the dungeon section into three (well, it was already split that way). I reduced the number of combat encounters in each section to four; in many cases, there were 10 encounters per section previously, which might have been enough to gain a level per section. This way, the PCs know they can clear one section of the dungeon and leave, instead of partially clearing a section out, retreating or hiding to rest, then coming back to face even more monsters.

When converting adventures, I try to split up the adventure in a similar manner, usually combining the interesting parts of several encounters for just one encounter. (As another thread stated, remove "trash" encounters.)

I don't believe it's necessary or even a good idea to promote a monster's or NPC's level to be above that of the PCs. Higher-level monsters become hard to hit and grindy. I try to use more monsters instead (and/or include some elites). So I'd be a bit leery of raising the Grey Maiden's AC.

I like the idea of the Grey Maiden sergeants, and have an entire stable of warlord-like NPCs for just that reason. (I have 4th-level watch sergeants, military officers, etc.)

I sometimes find that the PCs in my party all crank their AC scores. They're currently 10th-level (my main group, set in Dark Sun, that is, not the Spellgard group) but I simply make sure most NPCs can target something other than AC. I don't know about the Grey Maidens themselves (I guess I don't have that adventure), but if they use hammers or maces I'd probably give them a Crushing Blow at-will (which targets Fort) or if they use spears I'd give them an Armor-Piercing Strike at-will (which targets Ref).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

my mistake!

 

[D'karr]

Personally? I read the first chapter of Sea of Death, tossed it into the library donation box, and added Gygax to the list of Salvatore and other teenfic authors I'm no longer interested in reading.

If his other fiction is anything at all like SoD*, and I've no reason to think otherwise, you can do better.

*Hey, what an appropriate coincidence!

LOL, what were you converting?

 

[S'mon]

Thanks Psi. Here are my baseline Gray Maiden and Gray Maiden Corporal stats below. One challenge I faced was that in Book 2 of Crimson Throne, four Gray Maidens are expected to be a challenge to four 4th-5th level 3e PCs; and are statted as 3e Fighter-2. Four fifth level standard monsters won't be much of a challenge for five fifth level 4e PCs. Also, I want the Maidens to feel tough and threatening, they are supposed to be elite warriors. This ties in a bit to the Armour Class issue - even a 1st level PC with plate and shield is AC 20; if heavily armoured monsters have a lower-than-possible AC it doesn't feel right. Another issue is that I want these stats to remain useable for facing PCs across several levels, roughly 4th through 8th or 9th, with increased numbers, higher level leaders etc.
Also this is not a trash mob or throwaway encounter (which I might 'minionise' or remove entirely for 4e), it's a potentially pivotal moment & I don't mind it taking awhile; also it would be ok for the Maidens to retreat rather than fight to the death. So my thinking is that the four 3e F2 become three soldier-6 and one soldier-7 leader; 1050 XP, EL5:

Gray Maiden Level 6 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid (human) XP 250
HP 69; Bloodied 35
AC 23; Fortitude 16; Reflex 18; Will 18
Speed 5 Initiative +7
Perception +5
Standard Actions
m Broadsword (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: +11 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 8 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the Maiden's next turn.
M Imposing Smite (weapon) • Recharge 5 6
Attack: +11 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 8 damage, and an S or M target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. .
Triggered Actions
Fanatic (weapon)
Trigger: The Gray Maiden drops to 0 hp.
Effect: The Gray Maiden makes a melee basic attack.
Combat Supremacy • At-Will the maiden
Trigger: An adjacent marked target Shifts or makes an attack not including the Grey Maiden. .
Effect (Immediate Interrupt): She makes a Broadsword attack vs the marked target.
Skills Intimidate +11, Athletics +12, Endurance +9
Str 18 (+7) Dex 15 (+5) Wis 14 (+5)
Con 13 (+4) Int 12 (+4) Cha 16 (+6)
Alignment evil Languages Common
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, broadsword

Here's my Gray Maiden Corporal:

Gray Maiden Corporal Level 7 Soldier (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid (human) XP 300
HP 77; Bloodied 39
AC 23; Fortitude 17; Reflex 19; Will 20 Speed 5 Initiative +7
Perception +5
Standard Actions
m Broadsword (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: +12 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 9 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the Maiden's next turn.
M Imposing Smite (weapon) • Recharge 5 6
Attack: +12 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 9 damage, and an S or M target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. .
"Take them down!" • At-Will
Effect: (1 ally within 10, of a lower level than the Corporal.); The ally can shift 1 square and make a melee basic attack as a free action with a +2 bonus on the attack.
Move Actions
"Move it, Sister!" • At-Will
Effect: (1 ally within 10.); The ally can Shift 3 squares as a free action.
Triggered Actions
Fanatic (weapon)
Trigger: She falls to 0 hp.
Effect: The Gray Maiden makes a melee basic attack.
Combat Supremacy • At-Will
Trigger: Marked enemy shifts or makes an attack not including the Grey Maiden.
Effect (Immediate Interrupt): She makes a Broadsword attack vs the marked target.
Skills Intimidate +12, Athletics +12, Endurance +9
Str 18 (+7) Dex 15 (+5) Wis 14 (+5)
Con 13 (+4) Int 12 (+4) Cha 19 (+7)
Alignment evil Languages Common
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, broadsword

By contrast, in Book 6 the PCs, now around 14th level, likely assault Castle Korvosa and face numerous crack Gray Maiden bodyguards. In 3e these are statted as Fighter-8; I have made them 12th level Soldiers; which should give a similar effect - they remain threatening in numbers, but the PCs feel superior to even these elite troops. Again this is an important scene, and the castle assault should run as pretty much a single encounter, so it's less of an issue that the battle may take awhile. An encounter would be ca 8 of these (5600 XP, EL 14), with favourable terrain, but I'll need to work on leaders etc. I think it's important for the mystique of the Maidens (and my minis budget!) that I don't Minionise them, though.

Current draft:

Gray Maiden Throneguard Level 12 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid (human) XP 700
HP 120; Bloodied 60
AC 28; Fortitude 23; Reflex 25; Will 24
Speed 5 Initiative +12
Perception +9
Standard Actions
m Broadsword (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: +17 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 9 damage.
M Imposing Smite (weapon) • Recharge 5 6
Attack: +17 vs. AC
Hit: 3d10 + 9 damage, and an S or M target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. .
Triggered Actions
Fanatic (weapon)
Trigger: The Maiden Falls to 0 hp.
Effect: The Gray Maiden makes a melee basic attack.
Defender Aura • At-Will
Trigger: An adjacent enemy shifts or attacks someone neither marking the enemy nor imposing defender aura on the enemy.
Effect (Opportunity): She makes a Broadsword attack vs the triggering enemy.
Skills Intimidate +15, Athletics +16, Endurance +14
Str 21 (+11) Dex 18 (+10) Wis 17 (+9)
Con 16 (+9) Int 15 (+8) Cha 19 (+10)
Alignment evil Languages Common
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, broadsword

 

[S'mon]

Quick encounters - often it's easier to 'minionise' an encounter by making most or all of the enemy into minions, than it is to cut it out entirely. The risk though IME with a non-threatening encounter is that there is still one big time sink - rolling initiative! Some players can take an amazing amount of time to roll & declare that d20.
I've toyed with the idea of making PCs take 10 on init, but I don't think that leads to happy players. Perhaps a better approach is to have the monsters take 10 as a "DC" then have PCs roll against that declared target number, letting those who beat it attack, but not recording init, which takes several minutes. Since the 'fight' should last less than one round, that might be the best of both worlds?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

m Broadsword (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: +11 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 8 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the Maiden's next turn.

I would make that last line:

Hit: 1d10+8 damage. Effect: The target is marked until the end of the maiden's next turn.

MM3 and onward, it's in vogue for defender monsters to mark as an effect. That also makes Combat Supremacy a much more useful ability.