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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 9007627" data-attributes="member: 2525">I just listened to the newest Treantmonk optimization release on Patreon (which will hit YouTube for free not too long from now).He is reviewing the new fighter.Spoilers!He starts with the premise, having just read the class, that it's kind of meh. Now keep in mind, Treantmonk does optimization stuff for D&D now for a living. He crunches these numbers every day, plays a TON of games with other optimizers (and non-optimizers sometimes too), makes podcasts all the time, and you'd think if anyone would be good at glancing at new material and being able to figure out just from reading it if it's a big boost it would be him.But, you can't really truly know until you do the number crunching and make the builds and compare them.I really thought, going into this, he would come out pretty close to his initial impression. Which I must admit was my initial impression too, and I think the initial impression of a lot of people in this thread. Kinda meh. Yeah, some improvements, but not nearly enough. Crawford in his video promised a big jump in damage, and I was not seeing it.I was wrong. Treantmonk's initial impression was wrong. All the comments here giving an initial impression the damage isn't really booted enough? Wrong.Wow. There is SO MUCH interaction between all the new rules and the Fighter playtest that I was missing.So Treantmonk did a build comparison and made his best Champion fighter under the new rules. Gave them Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master (the Great Weapon master is something you can no longer do with the new rules). You'd think the old Champion should outpace or at least be pretty close to the new one given that advantage of Great Weapon Master. NOPE!The new Fighter was doing 50% more damage than the old one!So then he figured he must be not giving the old fighter the right situation. We all know Great Weapon Master shines the most when they get advantage. So he tested it giving advantage to both the old and new versions and tried the numbers again.The old fighter saw the expected jump in damage. However the new version? It was now 70% more damage than the old one!And to be clear, he didn't even choose the most powerful of the Weapon Mastery options because he thinks it's overpowered and is assuming it will get nerfed. So he chose decent Weapon Masteries (I think it was Cleave and Nick). And it's a "choice" because the fighter (and maybe only the fighter) can change them around.Yeah. There is stuff here I missed. Interactions with the new feats. Interactions with the new Weapon Masteries. Interactions with dying rules, saving throw rules, the levels you get certain things now, some re-wording on some class abilities and conditions, all sorts of stuff.And this is just the damage portion. All kinds of stuff got a huge boost! With the new dying rules, and the new second wind, and the new higher level class features, the new fighter is going to be incredibly hard to kill. And it's really hard on initial read to see that. There is a whole bunch of subtle stuff that allows for the new fighter to just pop right back up from being knocked unconscious that is hard to see if you just straight read the new class.Same for their saving throws. It's hard to see they're going to just outright change a failed save to a made save most of the time at higher levels sometimes.And the feats. Oh my, the feats. So many feats now give a +1 to a stat, and the new fighter gets so many feats and at earlier levels than the old fighter. They are maxing out their primary stat much faster.They're even better at skill usage than the old fighter. And with the feat changes, they have more options to boost that aspect while still dealing more damage. Because it wasn't even about the quantity of feats - it was about when you get them and the feats themselves and how you get more feats due to so many +1 feats now as options that you max out your main stat that much faster too.Listening to this podcast I am wondering if I am doing this with all the new classes. If there isn't a bunch of stuff I am missing because I am not doing actual builds with all the new rules and seeing how all the new rules interact with the new class features and then running a comparison to an old version of the same class and seeing if there is a big change.</blockquote>

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