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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 9020219" data-attributes="member: 7035894">Many of these suggestions keep hitting on what the Fighter is already great at - dealing and taking damage. They are an A-S tier class in both departments. Weapon mastery offers a significant damage buff and a few more combat options, though nothing too exciting. They need more options outside of combat, though that has to come at a cost - no class can be A-S tier at everything.I think what limits fighters is that they are really great at these two very important and pretty easily quantifiable things. So they have a very clear role. But they are bottom tier at everything that isn't those roles. This is a significant design problem, because it can play out very differently at different tabletops. If you have a combat-heavy, roleplay-lite table, fighters are amazing. If you have a roleplay-heavy, combat-lite table, fighters suck.Contrast with, say, a rogue. Rogues are A-S tier at exploration, and probably C-B tier at everything else. Rogues are an easier class to balance; you can tweak a few things, but players at most tables will find opportunities where their rogue can be the star at times.I argue that increasing damage output or survivability works against making fighters more interesting and flexible - they don't need buffs in those departments. Any improvements should be in areas that make them interesting outside of combat. This is potentially addressed to some degree, by the greater access to feats that fighters currently have, though a lot of players don't really look at feats as a way to broaden the capacities of their fighter outside of combat, but more as a way to double down on what the fighter already does well.WotC has to aspire to keep all the classes balanced against each other, so there is a bit of a zero sum game going on. If one class is above or below the average, taking a typical campaign into account (so much as there is such a thing) then that becomes a problem. Fighters are not currently a problem in terms of their average utility, they are a problem because their utility is so lopsided.</blockquote>

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