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4/26 Playtest: The Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9020873" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>No. I did not ask about fighters who had "done epic things" I asked for fighter who ARE epic. It would be an incredibly epic thing to flip off a dragon before dropping a match and exploding a city packed with gunpowder. It could also be done by any commoner with enough foresight. I wanted fighters who ARE epic legends. </p><p></p><p>And if you check back at my post... Cale was your best example.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did do my research. I mention him at both level 12 and at level nine. But here's the point, after doing research... I can't figure out who he even fought. What was the greatest enemy he took down single handed? Okay, he went to the Abyss, what did he DO there? Because Mordenkainen day trips to the Abyss on a regular basis, so there is a bit of a difference between going to the Abyss and scurrying and running for your life, and going to the Abyss and being a THREAT to the things there. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because they were in my other post that you clearly skipped if you want to keep trying to claim Drizz'zt beat the Ghost King or Demogorgon. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Semantics? No that is not "semantics". He didn't win because he was that good of a fighter. He won because an illithid hive-mind held down Demogorgon while Drizz'zt acted as a glorified lightning rod. That speaks nothing to his skill as a fighter. </p><p></p><p>And who cares if he was champion of Menxobarrenzen? Do you think Asmodeus is quivering in his boots if he is told the champion of a drow city is coming to face him? Maybe you need to review the level limits and how they break down. </p><p></p><p>Levels 1-4 "Local Heroes" </p><p>Level 5- 10 "Heroes of the Realm" </p><p>Levels 11 - 16 "Masters of the Realm" -> This is where I'd expect the "Champion" of a major place like Menxobarrenzen to be</p><p></p><p>Levels 17 - 20 "Masters of the World" -> THIS where you are a threat to multiversal forces, is where I'm talking about. This is an entire tier of play higher.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No? Unless you are talking about a video game where TAkhisis holds Raistlan in the Abyss, this is what happens "<em>Caramon confronts Raistlin with his experience of the future and Raistlin's solitary, meaningless existence. After dragging the memory from Caramon's experience of the future, Raistlin was convinced of what Caramon warned. Raistlin tells his twin to take Crysania back to Krynn and gives up his life preventing Takhisis from passing through the portal.</em>"</p><p></p><p>This is the end of the Test of the Twins, where Caramon goes to the future where "<em>it is revealed that Raistlin was successful in defeating Takhisis and has gone on to destroy the other gods and all life on Krynn.</em>"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Was that before or after Cadderly defeats him on Faerun? I quoted it once, but I'll quote it again.</p><p></p><p>"<em>Seeing his [Cadderly's] wife and some friends in danger, his need to act called out and something answered. Reciting off unknown spells, he creates a flying horse and carriage out of a cloud and rides down to rescue the fighters below displaying godlike power in the form of potent and great unknown spells.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p> <em>The Ghost King is defeated but escapes to the Shadowfell, where he recovers rapidly. He returns and is defeated a second time, disappearing to the Shadowfell again. Cadderly uses Catti-brie as a conduit to enter the Shadowfell to finish off the Ghost King. In the end, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King at the cost of his life and becomes the new Ghost King, forever reinforcing and guarding the ward containing the rift left by the old Ghost King.</em>"</p><p></p><p>So, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King, the Ghost King comes back, eats Drizz't who kills him from the inside, and then Cadderly goes to finish him off? This is a really suspect feat, and I'm not reading an entire trilogy just to try and find it. Especially since Drizz'zt is explicitly unable to even reach the Ghost King in the first fight, to again quote</p><p></p><p>"<em>They attempt to press through with the unconscious Catti-brie on a wagon but not even a fierce charge by the dwarven heroes followed by the speed of the drow could break through the unstoppable tide.</em>" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Would have attempted to kill him. There is no way Caramon could have actually done it. Especially since it becomes clear in reading the summary that Raistlin was convinced by the memories, not cowed by his brother's thews.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I still asked for epic fighters who were not Gods. Especially since the kiling of Cyric involved a weapon that was secretly Mask, another God. Killing a god with a god isn't exactly very difficult.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, easy enough for Tasha. </p><p></p><p>She captured Graz'zt, then after she was weakened by Tsojcanth he broke free and fought her. She barely killed his earthly vessel and banished him (again, while weakened). Then later, while she was his "queen" and prisoner in the Argent Palace, she was freed by Tuerny the Merciless and fought Graz'zt to a standstill throughout the palace, while killing many of his "favored servants". Eventually they called a truce and he had her things taken from the palace. </p><p></p><p>Raistlan, in the future Caramon was trying to prevent, kills the Queen of Evil, one of the two most powerful gods of his realm, then every other god in existence, and leaves behind a world without life. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, that is two wizard characters who are fighting on equal footing to gods and god-like entities. The closest you have to this is Driz'zt acting as a magical lightning rod with the assistance of an Illithid Hive Mind to banish Demogorgon. Think he could have done that in the heart of Demogorgon's power like Tasha did Graz'zt?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't want to discount magical powers. That's why I didn't comment on Cale being a Shade, but being a Bhaalspawn is a little different. Bhaalspawn are shards of Bhaal. And, additionally, here's a source listing some of his powers</p><p></p><p>"<em>His Bhaalspawn blood also gave him certain special abilities that allowed him to prevail even when he was otherwise outmatched in combat...he noticed his injuries healing at a rapid rate. This regeneration soon became veritably troll-like, so that even when he broke his spine it healed within moments. He also became able to draw on his divine blood in combat to defeat powerful creatures his mercenary's skill in battle was no match against. Eventually, he gained invulnerability to normal weapons</em>." </p><p></p><p>Troll regeneration. Immunity to weapon damage. And, oh yeah, it SPECIFICALLY cites that he called on his divine blood to win in fights he was out-matched in. So it was literally a power that helped him win when his skills as a fighter were not sufficient. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, a Bhaalspawn killing Bhaal isn't that impressive. The Bhaalspawn were literal pieces of Bhaal, meant to be collected and used to bring back Bhaal. Some of them even became literal avatars of Bhaal. So one of them killing Bhaal is essentially Bhaal fighting and killing himself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which wasn't what was asked.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"part of a plot"? That is so intentional vague, especially since her spellcasting sister is the main character of the series. How much do I want to bet that it is Farideh the Warlock and Chosen of Asmodeus who is explicitly mentioned as saving Asmodeus who is the one who actually does this and Havilar is a "was also there"</p><p></p><p>Was her "part of the plot" just to carry the heavy things for her sister? Or did it involve fighting someone notable?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Argent Palace when she fought Graz'zt to a standstill after being freed. Done.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9020873, member: 6801228"] No. I did not ask about fighters who had "done epic things" I asked for fighter who ARE epic. It would be an incredibly epic thing to flip off a dragon before dropping a match and exploding a city packed with gunpowder. It could also be done by any commoner with enough foresight. I wanted fighters who ARE epic legends. And if you check back at my post... Cale was your best example. I did do my research. I mention him at both level 12 and at level nine. But here's the point, after doing research... I can't figure out who he even fought. What was the greatest enemy he took down single handed? Okay, he went to the Abyss, what did he DO there? Because Mordenkainen day trips to the Abyss on a regular basis, so there is a bit of a difference between going to the Abyss and scurrying and running for your life, and going to the Abyss and being a THREAT to the things there. Because they were in my other post that you clearly skipped if you want to keep trying to claim Drizz'zt beat the Ghost King or Demogorgon. Semantics? No that is not "semantics". He didn't win because he was that good of a fighter. He won because an illithid hive-mind held down Demogorgon while Drizz'zt acted as a glorified lightning rod. That speaks nothing to his skill as a fighter. And who cares if he was champion of Menxobarrenzen? Do you think Asmodeus is quivering in his boots if he is told the champion of a drow city is coming to face him? Maybe you need to review the level limits and how they break down. Levels 1-4 "Local Heroes" Level 5- 10 "Heroes of the Realm" Levels 11 - 16 "Masters of the Realm" -> This is where I'd expect the "Champion" of a major place like Menxobarrenzen to be Levels 17 - 20 "Masters of the World" -> THIS where you are a threat to multiversal forces, is where I'm talking about. This is an entire tier of play higher. No? Unless you are talking about a video game where TAkhisis holds Raistlan in the Abyss, this is what happens "[I]Caramon confronts Raistlin with his experience of the future and Raistlin's solitary, meaningless existence. After dragging the memory from Caramon's experience of the future, Raistlin was convinced of what Caramon warned. Raistlin tells his twin to take Crysania back to Krynn and gives up his life preventing Takhisis from passing through the portal.[/I]" This is the end of the Test of the Twins, where Caramon goes to the future where "[I]it is revealed that Raistlin was successful in defeating Takhisis and has gone on to destroy the other gods and all life on Krynn.[/I]" Was that before or after Cadderly defeats him on Faerun? I quoted it once, but I'll quote it again. "[I]Seeing his [Cadderly's] wife and some friends in danger, his need to act called out and something answered. Reciting off unknown spells, he creates a flying horse and carriage out of a cloud and rides down to rescue the fighters below displaying godlike power in the form of potent and great unknown spells. The Ghost King is defeated but escapes to the Shadowfell, where he recovers rapidly. He returns and is defeated a second time, disappearing to the Shadowfell again. Cadderly uses Catti-brie as a conduit to enter the Shadowfell to finish off the Ghost King. In the end, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King at the cost of his life and becomes the new Ghost King, forever reinforcing and guarding the ward containing the rift left by the old Ghost King.[/I]" So, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King, the Ghost King comes back, eats Drizz't who kills him from the inside, and then Cadderly goes to finish him off? This is a really suspect feat, and I'm not reading an entire trilogy just to try and find it. Especially since Drizz'zt is explicitly unable to even reach the Ghost King in the first fight, to again quote "[I]They attempt to press through with the unconscious Catti-brie on a wagon but not even a fierce charge by the dwarven heroes followed by the speed of the drow could break through the unstoppable tide.[/I]" Would have attempted to kill him. There is no way Caramon could have actually done it. Especially since it becomes clear in reading the summary that Raistlin was convinced by the memories, not cowed by his brother's thews. And I still asked for epic fighters who were not Gods. Especially since the kiling of Cyric involved a weapon that was secretly Mask, another God. Killing a god with a god isn't exactly very difficult. Sure, easy enough for Tasha. She captured Graz'zt, then after she was weakened by Tsojcanth he broke free and fought her. She barely killed his earthly vessel and banished him (again, while weakened). Then later, while she was his "queen" and prisoner in the Argent Palace, she was freed by Tuerny the Merciless and fought Graz'zt to a standstill throughout the palace, while killing many of his "favored servants". Eventually they called a truce and he had her things taken from the palace. Raistlan, in the future Caramon was trying to prevent, kills the Queen of Evil, one of the two most powerful gods of his realm, then every other god in existence, and leaves behind a world without life. So, that is two wizard characters who are fighting on equal footing to gods and god-like entities. The closest you have to this is Driz'zt acting as a magical lightning rod with the assistance of an Illithid Hive Mind to banish Demogorgon. Think he could have done that in the heart of Demogorgon's power like Tasha did Graz'zt? No, I don't want to discount magical powers. That's why I didn't comment on Cale being a Shade, but being a Bhaalspawn is a little different. Bhaalspawn are shards of Bhaal. And, additionally, here's a source listing some of his powers "[I]His Bhaalspawn blood also gave him certain special abilities that allowed him to prevail even when he was otherwise outmatched in combat...he noticed his injuries healing at a rapid rate. This regeneration soon became veritably troll-like, so that even when he broke his spine it healed within moments. He also became able to draw on his divine blood in combat to defeat powerful creatures his mercenary's skill in battle was no match against. Eventually, he gained invulnerability to normal weapons[/I]." Troll regeneration. Immunity to weapon damage. And, oh yeah, it SPECIFICALLY cites that he called on his divine blood to win in fights he was out-matched in. So it was literally a power that helped him win when his skills as a fighter were not sufficient. Additionally, a Bhaalspawn killing Bhaal isn't that impressive. The Bhaalspawn were literal pieces of Bhaal, meant to be collected and used to bring back Bhaal. Some of them even became literal avatars of Bhaal. So one of them killing Bhaal is essentially Bhaal fighting and killing himself. Which wasn't what was asked. "part of a plot"? That is so intentional vague, especially since her spellcasting sister is the main character of the series. How much do I want to bet that it is Farideh the Warlock and Chosen of Asmodeus who is explicitly mentioned as saving Asmodeus who is the one who actually does this and Havilar is a "was also there" Was her "part of the plot" just to carry the heavy things for her sister? Or did it involve fighting someone notable? Argent Palace when she fought Graz'zt to a standstill after being freed. Done. [/QUOTE]
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