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4/26 Playtest: The Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9021676" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So what about being a good fighter is reflected in working with an illithid hive-mind and being a conduit for magic? If he was "that good" of a fighter, why couldn't he win by <strong><em>being a fighter</em></strong>. Or, if being a conduit for magic is the ONLY way that you can be an epic level fighter, why isn't that reflected in the class</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it isn't immaterial!! Good Lord man, a level 0 commoner could be "epic" then as long as they had a heartfelt moment with a powerful sibling. Caramon's class is completely immaterial to a brotherly moment. The entire point is to find Fighter's who can be what players aspire towards 20th level to emulate. It isn't 20th level to go "and then he hugged his brother". </p><p></p><p>Is it a touching and heartfelt moment of familial and brotherly love, showing that the bonds of family can save the world? Absolutely. Does it have anything at all to do with being an epic level character? Not in the slightest. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, again, is this the second time after Cadderly defeats him the first time? You seem more concerned with specifying how Drizz't ends up inside the Dracolich than the order of events here. Heck, was the ghost King even at full power after remanifesting from being blown to bits by the hyper-priest?</p><p></p><p>Also, again, where is the skill involved in "I'll hit him from the INSIDE"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ah yes, I forgot about the 18th level fighter ability "Throw them in a Volcano" which allows all fghters to summon a volcano to throw their enemies into. Also, he used a juicer so... basically a giant hydraulic press? Not say... his skill with a hammer and shield? </p><p></p><p>As for why I didn't talk much about Bruenor, that's because I talked about him in an earlier post. The problem is that every single fight Bruenor was listed in, he was fighting with a group of other people. You mention the Pit Fiend, but, well, again... maybe this is just wiki summarizing but it says that he died against that Pit fiend, alongside his companion Thibbledorf Pwent, another mid-level fighter. Meanwhile, him and his companions triumphed over the Balor. </p><p></p><p>So, it is difficult to say how much of this is Bruenor's Skill in combat and how much is the strength of his companions. He defeats one powerful fiend without dying, but dies in the process of defeating another (and it was initially unclear if he defeated Beealtimatuche from the summary) And actually, checking in on Beealtimatuche's page. He was summoned to fight Bruenor AND Drizz't. So we have at least three fighters in this mix right now. </p><p></p><p>You'll also notice I said "another mid-level fighter". Care to take a guess at Bruenor's level? Level 13. So even if we were to give him all the accolades... a 20th level fighter should still be significantly stronger. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Too bad "guile and wit" aren't class abilities. Seriously, again, guile and wit are something that any character can have. If all it takes is coming up with a clever plan, then your level doesn't matter. Elminster has guile and wit, and the ability to blow you up with meteors or stop time or teleport to other dimensions. </p><p></p><p>"This character did something clever" =/= "This character is 20th level" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You recall incorrectly. </p><p></p><p>Tasha summoned Grazz'zt and bound him. She was injured, fought Grazz'zt when he broke free, and destroyed his corporeal self, sending him back to the Abyss. Later, she tried to summon and bind him again, but he laid a trap that pulled her to the Abyss and bound her. Where she was later freed, and fought him to a stalemate. I mentioned the capture for context, defeating him while injured the first time IS defeating him in combat. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, that book? She made it. And aren't fighter's always getting magical items? Isn't like, half of Drizz'zt speed from magical bracers? Bracers he was given/found, not bracers he made through study and arcane power? So, yeah, since she made the Demonicon, I count that as hers. </p><p></p><p>As for Baba Yaga, pay attention to the story. She was raised and taught magic by Baba Yaga. She didn't gain any powers from her. She is a Wizard by class, not a warlock. Her ties to the Fey Wild and her ascension to an Archfey? All AFTER her second fight with Grazz't. So, yeah, I didn't count those because I'm talking about before that was a thing. So, there is nothing to discount unless you add more to the story than is there. Nothing in her history suggests she was given power by Baba Yaga, just training. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought Elminster turned down being an Avatar of Mystra? Looking through some history, it does seem he has been a Chosen of hers since the beginning. My bad. That is one of the big four who is disqualified due to having god-juice. </p><p></p><p>And I had no idea that Raistlin was a shard, I thought he was a mortal. <em>does more research</em></p><p></p><p>So... less of a double standard here. Fistandantilis? He was a mortal wizard, used an artifact to gain immortality, and tried to rise to godhood but failed and was destroyed. Sure, Raistlin makes a deal with him and absorbs him into his body, but he absorbed the knowledge of wizardry, not any god-like power. </p><p></p><p>As for him being a shard of Takhisis... I can't find any source that supports that. So, citation needed? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So for all we know, her contribution was jumping in front of a spell and dying while her sister did the actual task. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a 20th level fighter. Which she probably wasn't since, again, we know for a fact she was defeated by a succubus and sent to kill her allies, who were able to break the enchantment on her. </p><p></p><p>Again, you seem to be mixing "this was so cool to read" with "this is an epic level character". It would be really cool to read a story of a plucky squire taking down a troll. But killing a troll isn't exactly something that should be difficult for a level 20 character.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9021676, member: 6801228"] So what about being a good fighter is reflected in working with an illithid hive-mind and being a conduit for magic? If he was "that good" of a fighter, why couldn't he win by [B][I]being a fighter[/I][/B]. Or, if being a conduit for magic is the ONLY way that you can be an epic level fighter, why isn't that reflected in the class No it isn't immaterial!! Good Lord man, a level 0 commoner could be "epic" then as long as they had a heartfelt moment with a powerful sibling. Caramon's class is completely immaterial to a brotherly moment. The entire point is to find Fighter's who can be what players aspire towards 20th level to emulate. It isn't 20th level to go "and then he hugged his brother". Is it a touching and heartfelt moment of familial and brotherly love, showing that the bonds of family can save the world? Absolutely. Does it have anything at all to do with being an epic level character? Not in the slightest. Okay, again, is this the second time after Cadderly defeats him the first time? You seem more concerned with specifying how Drizz't ends up inside the Dracolich than the order of events here. Heck, was the ghost King even at full power after remanifesting from being blown to bits by the hyper-priest? Also, again, where is the skill involved in "I'll hit him from the INSIDE" Ah yes, I forgot about the 18th level fighter ability "Throw them in a Volcano" which allows all fghters to summon a volcano to throw their enemies into. Also, he used a juicer so... basically a giant hydraulic press? Not say... his skill with a hammer and shield? As for why I didn't talk much about Bruenor, that's because I talked about him in an earlier post. The problem is that every single fight Bruenor was listed in, he was fighting with a group of other people. You mention the Pit Fiend, but, well, again... maybe this is just wiki summarizing but it says that he died against that Pit fiend, alongside his companion Thibbledorf Pwent, another mid-level fighter. Meanwhile, him and his companions triumphed over the Balor. So, it is difficult to say how much of this is Bruenor's Skill in combat and how much is the strength of his companions. He defeats one powerful fiend without dying, but dies in the process of defeating another (and it was initially unclear if he defeated Beealtimatuche from the summary) And actually, checking in on Beealtimatuche's page. He was summoned to fight Bruenor AND Drizz't. So we have at least three fighters in this mix right now. You'll also notice I said "another mid-level fighter". Care to take a guess at Bruenor's level? Level 13. So even if we were to give him all the accolades... a 20th level fighter should still be significantly stronger. Too bad "guile and wit" aren't class abilities. Seriously, again, guile and wit are something that any character can have. If all it takes is coming up with a clever plan, then your level doesn't matter. Elminster has guile and wit, and the ability to blow you up with meteors or stop time or teleport to other dimensions. "This character did something clever" =/= "This character is 20th level" You recall incorrectly. Tasha summoned Grazz'zt and bound him. She was injured, fought Grazz'zt when he broke free, and destroyed his corporeal self, sending him back to the Abyss. Later, she tried to summon and bind him again, but he laid a trap that pulled her to the Abyss and bound her. Where she was later freed, and fought him to a stalemate. I mentioned the capture for context, defeating him while injured the first time IS defeating him in combat. Additionally, that book? She made it. And aren't fighter's always getting magical items? Isn't like, half of Drizz'zt speed from magical bracers? Bracers he was given/found, not bracers he made through study and arcane power? So, yeah, since she made the Demonicon, I count that as hers. As for Baba Yaga, pay attention to the story. She was raised and taught magic by Baba Yaga. She didn't gain any powers from her. She is a Wizard by class, not a warlock. Her ties to the Fey Wild and her ascension to an Archfey? All AFTER her second fight with Grazz't. So, yeah, I didn't count those because I'm talking about before that was a thing. So, there is nothing to discount unless you add more to the story than is there. Nothing in her history suggests she was given power by Baba Yaga, just training. I thought Elminster turned down being an Avatar of Mystra? Looking through some history, it does seem he has been a Chosen of hers since the beginning. My bad. That is one of the big four who is disqualified due to having god-juice. And I had no idea that Raistlin was a shard, I thought he was a mortal. [I]does more research[/I] So... less of a double standard here. Fistandantilis? He was a mortal wizard, used an artifact to gain immortality, and tried to rise to godhood but failed and was destroyed. Sure, Raistlin makes a deal with him and absorbs him into his body, but he absorbed the knowledge of wizardry, not any god-like power. As for him being a shard of Takhisis... I can't find any source that supports that. So, citation needed? So for all we know, her contribution was jumping in front of a spell and dying while her sister did the actual task. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a 20th level fighter. Which she probably wasn't since, again, we know for a fact she was defeated by a succubus and sent to kill her allies, who were able to break the enchantment on her. Again, you seem to be mixing "this was so cool to read" with "this is an epic level character". It would be really cool to read a story of a plucky squire taking down a troll. But killing a troll isn't exactly something that should be difficult for a level 20 character. [/QUOTE]
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