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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9018555" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Unless the DM says it doesn't. You are making this &quot;balance&quot; argument based entirely on DM fiat.What fruits of what labor? Even at your most &quot;realistic&quot; the player or the character aren't doing anything beyond spending money and waiting. What possible sense of accomplishment can you get out of that? You haven't DONE anything.And I've played with new players who wanted to keep going on the adventure, not have to go on some random side-quest for some random trinket just so they can use their abilities. Because it isn't about &quot;can I obtain a statue of myself&quot; it is about stopping the BBEG or whatever their goal as a party is. And new players might assume there is a reason, but I notice you abandoned your position to instead argue about how new players will be okay with it and think its neato. Every player I've ever had who takes a spell, wants to use the spell, not have the spell so they can wait multiple levels until they are allowed to use it. And the non-casters don't even know about it, because they don't care about it. Why should they? Unless the caster starts trying to guide them into going and looking for this random trinket, and in which case, the players are equally likely to me and ask &quot;do we really have to stop and do this?&quot;Ranger with no magic items, no feats, and no spells. 2d8+10 = 19 damage. You want to include feats and spells? Then things rapidly change on both fronts. But more than that, you can't declare the best cantrip worthless just because you don't like cantrips. That is ridiculous.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9018555, member: 6801228"] Unless the DM says it doesn't. You are making this "balance" argument based entirely on DM fiat. What fruits of what labor? Even at your most "realistic" the player or the character aren't doing anything beyond spending money and waiting. What possible sense of accomplishment can you get out of that? You haven't DONE anything. And I've played with new players who wanted to keep going on the adventure, not have to go on some random side-quest for some random trinket just so they can use their abilities. Because it isn't about "can I obtain a statue of myself" it is about stopping the BBEG or whatever their goal as a party is. And new players might assume there is a reason, but I notice you abandoned your position to instead argue about how new players will be okay with it and think its neato. Every player I've ever had who takes a spell, wants to use the spell, not have the spell so they can wait multiple levels until they are allowed to use it. And the non-casters don't even know about it, because they don't care about it. Why should they? Unless the caster starts trying to guide them into going and looking for this random trinket, and in which case, the players are equally likely to me and ask "do we really have to stop and do this?" Ranger with no magic items, no feats, and no spells. 2d8+10 = 19 damage. You want to include feats and spells? Then things rapidly change on both fronts. But more than that, you can't declare the best cantrip worthless just because you don't like cantrips. That is ridiculous. [/QUOTE]

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