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<blockquote data-quote="Wik" data-source="post: 4305640" data-attributes="member: 40177">Fair enough.&nbsp; I can see where you're coming from, Alikar and MightyTev.&nbsp; But, I can also see the flip side of the argument.The PHB is horribly organized, and an absolute mess for a newb to get into.&nbsp; There are a bunch of fiddly bits that shouldn't be there (my rogue gets theivery and stealth as automatic trained skills... yet he can choose those skills again, seemingly, on his class skills list!)&nbsp; It really takes some searching to find how many powers you begin play with... both my best friend and I searched for half an hour each, on seperate occasions, to figure out that it's all included on a table.&nbsp; There are at-will powers, and then there are powers that can be used at-will;&nbsp; these are not the same thing, apparently.&nbsp; It doesn't describe what [w] means until halfway through the damned book, and I still haven't figured out what [ts] means (but I'm guessing it's 'times').&nbsp; Some of these are minor things... a lot of them are a bit more major.&nbsp; And we're not looking at powers or anything yet, either.&nbsp; And, hey, look at the DMG!&nbsp; It seems like every chapter was half-written, or no examples were given.&nbsp; When I flip through the &quot;making a monster&quot; section, I find that it seems to be missing two pages.&nbsp; There are no &quot;making traps&quot; rules, for some silly reason.&nbsp; And I can't find anywhere that tells me, explicitly, how to turn a gnoll into a minion, for example.&nbsp; (maybe they are there... I just can't find them.&nbsp; Which says something about the poor layout and index of these books)Yeah, frrom what I've seen of 4e so far, it looks like it'll be fun in combat.&nbsp; But there's way too much errata in there for me to be that happy about the game so far.On the plus side, I really like how wotc released all three books simultaneously, as opposed to 3e's original release.&nbsp; Some of you may not remember it, but the books were staged in their release date.&nbsp; I have a first printing 3e PHB that included some basic magical items and monsters, as well as XP rules of a sort, just so players could play the game they had just bought.&nbsp; 3 months of fighting goblins and skeletons is not fun...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wik, post: 4305640, member: 40177"] Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from, Alikar and MightyTev. But, I can also see the flip side of the argument. The PHB is horribly organized, and an absolute mess for a newb to get into. There are a bunch of fiddly bits that shouldn't be there (my rogue gets theivery and stealth as automatic trained skills... yet he can choose those skills again, seemingly, on his class skills list!) It really takes some searching to find how many powers you begin play with... both my best friend and I searched for half an hour each, on seperate occasions, to figure out that it's all included on a table. There are at-will powers, and then there are powers that can be used at-will; these are not the same thing, apparently. It doesn't describe what [w] means until halfway through the damned book, and I still haven't figured out what [ts] means (but I'm guessing it's 'times'). Some of these are minor things... a lot of them are a bit more major. And we're not looking at powers or anything yet, either. And, hey, look at the DMG! It seems like every chapter was half-written, or no examples were given. When I flip through the "making a monster" section, I find that it seems to be missing two pages. There are no "making traps" rules, for some silly reason. And I can't find anywhere that tells me, explicitly, how to turn a gnoll into a minion, for example. (maybe they are there... I just can't find them. Which says something about the poor layout and index of these books) Yeah, frrom what I've seen of 4e so far, it looks like it'll be fun in combat. But there's way too much errata in there for me to be that happy about the game so far. On the plus side, I really like how wotc released all three books simultaneously, as opposed to 3e's original release. Some of you may not remember it, but the books were staged in their release date. I have a first printing 3e PHB that included some basic magical items and monsters, as well as XP rules of a sort, just so players could play the game they had just bought. 3 months of fighting goblins and skeletons is not fun... [/QUOTE]

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