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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6271577" data-attributes="member: 20323">IME that criticism of 4e (and its &quot;sister game&quot; 13th Age) - that you as a player look to your powers first as how to resolve a combat - is quite accurate. There's nothing wrong with that, and it can be quite fun. But there is a certain kind of player whose creativity suffers in such a system. Now, this sort of &quot;here's your hand of cards and what you can do&quot; design is not new to RPGs or D&amp;D, 4e just kicked it up a level.When it comes to how this affects immersion, I think it's more on how it changes the table dynamic. When you have most of the players talking in game-speak (&quot;Ok, I spend a minor action to heal up Dave, then move over here, and attack the goblin with Tide of Iron&quot;), it is jarring for some players. I am one of them. More than in 1e and 2e (I didn't DM 3e so can't comment), I find in 4e as DM having to prompt players to give the group more description than that.Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of D&amp;D and 4e is probably my &quot;favorite&quot; edition, but I think it can be a buzz kill for a certain types of players and their creativity / immersion (which I tend to view as connected). It's one of the things that prompted me to put more effort into a system which focuses on creativity: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353104-A-Dark-High-Fantasy-RPG" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353104-A-Dark-High-Fantasy-RPG</a>Not to say that you can't play a &quot;creativity before powers&quot; / &quot;fiction first&quot; style of game in 4e, it's just that the 4e system seems to either attract or forge players who play &quot;powers before creativity&quot; / &quot;game first.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6271577, member: 20323"] IME that criticism of 4e (and its "sister game" 13th Age) - that you as a player look to your powers first as how to resolve a combat - is quite accurate. There's nothing wrong with that, and it can be quite fun. But there is a certain kind of player whose creativity suffers in such a system. Now, this sort of "here's your hand of cards and what you can do" design is not new to RPGs or D&D, 4e just kicked it up a level. When it comes to how this affects immersion, I think it's more on how it changes the table dynamic. When you have most of the players talking in game-speak ("Ok, I spend a minor action to heal up Dave, then move over here, and attack the goblin with Tide of Iron"), it is jarring for some players. I am one of them. More than in 1e and 2e (I didn't DM 3e so can't comment), I find in 4e as DM having to prompt players to give the group more description than that. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of D&D and 4e is probably my "favorite" edition, but I think it can be a buzz kill for a certain types of players and their creativity / immersion (which I tend to view as connected). It's one of the things that prompted me to put more effort into a system which focuses on creativity: [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353104-A-Dark-High-Fantasy-RPG[/url] Not to say that you can't play a "creativity before powers" / "fiction first" style of game in 4e, it's just that the 4e system seems to either attract or forge players who play "powers before creativity" / "game first." [/QUOTE]

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