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<blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 4536190" data-attributes="member: 63763">There is, you just need to still take combat powers.&nbsp;However, feats and utilities range between those especially useful IN combat, and those useful outside of combat. So do skills.&nbsp;Acrobatics and Athletics and Stealth have a number of in combat uses. Some of the other powers ... less so. Outside of &quot;I know what that does&quot; most of the knowledge skills only help in combat if it's part of a larger mixed skill challenge and combat encounter. Traps also factor into that.&nbsp;While you can't get rid of attack powers to get utility powers, there are a FEW attack powers which can have out of combat applications.&nbsp;One of the things that was changed in 4e was that a class wouldn't be balanced by giving it more OUT of combat powers to make up for a lack of IN combat powers.&nbsp;How, exactly, is having a character suck at combat, and another character suck out of combat particular useful? It basically means the group is going to go back and forth between &quot;Well, now we are going to be doing stuff in the city. The Fighter can go to sleep while the Rogue and Wizard have fun. Now we are in nature ... the fighter can sleep while the ranger and barbarian do stuff. Fight time ... it's undead, the rogue can sleep now ...&quot;&nbsp;But basically, you can't trade combat effeciency for out of combat effenciency in 4e.&nbsp;Except for feat selectionAnd utility power selection.And choice of assigning ability scores.And skill selection.&nbsp;But other than that ...&nbsp;EDIT:&nbsp;A note on Rogues. First of all, they aren't called theives anymore. Secondly, while they don't get a NATURAL bonus to thievery ... they do have utility powers tied to thievery. No other class has that, as far as I can tell, even the warlock who can train in it right off the bat [as opposed to every other class that needs a feat or background or be eladrin to get thievery].&nbsp;They can:&nbsp;Reduce thievery from standard to minor action 1/encounter (5 minutes). You can pick a pocket during combat without penalty. You can pop a lock open easily and in short order. &nbsp;And that's what they have now ... they may very well add to this in the Martial Power book, probably making sure there is 1 utility per level for each skill type [which seems to be the basic &quot;specialization&quot; path Rogues get ... compared to the weapon specialization of a fighter].</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WalterKovacs, post: 4536190, member: 63763"] There is, you just need to still take combat powers. However, feats and utilities range between those especially useful IN combat, and those useful outside of combat. So do skills. Acrobatics and Athletics and Stealth have a number of in combat uses. Some of the other powers ... less so. Outside of "I know what that does" most of the knowledge skills only help in combat if it's part of a larger mixed skill challenge and combat encounter. Traps also factor into that. While you can't get rid of attack powers to get utility powers, there are a FEW attack powers which can have out of combat applications. One of the things that was changed in 4e was that a class wouldn't be balanced by giving it more OUT of combat powers to make up for a lack of IN combat powers. How, exactly, is having a character suck at combat, and another character suck out of combat particular useful? It basically means the group is going to go back and forth between "Well, now we are going to be doing stuff in the city. The Fighter can go to sleep while the Rogue and Wizard have fun. Now we are in nature ... the fighter can sleep while the ranger and barbarian do stuff. Fight time ... it's undead, the rogue can sleep now ..." But basically, you can't trade combat effeciency for out of combat effenciency in 4e. Except for feat selection And utility power selection. And choice of assigning ability scores. And skill selection. But other than that ... EDIT: A note on Rogues. First of all, they aren't called theives anymore. Secondly, while they don't get a NATURAL bonus to thievery ... they do have utility powers tied to thievery. No other class has that, as far as I can tell, even the warlock who can train in it right off the bat [as opposed to every other class that needs a feat or background or be eladrin to get thievery]. They can: Reduce thievery from standard to minor action 1/encounter (5 minutes). You can pick a pocket during combat without penalty. You can pop a lock open easily and in short order. And that's what they have now ... they may very well add to this in the Martial Power book, probably making sure there is 1 utility per level for each skill type [which seems to be the basic "specialization" path Rogues get ... compared to the weapon specialization of a fighter]. [/QUOTE]

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