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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5308657" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>2 things strike me each time I hear this. First is that the whole "my grabby fighter will be worthless" is just overblown. In fact it was just an easy example that everyone already had in mind. We could easily talk about ANY build of any class in this vein. You can see where the reductio ad absurdum comes in here, if there are a few times when each character's specific shtick is thwarted then they're worthless? I guess ALL THE BUILDS IN THE GAME are worthless then. Obviously there is a serious flaw with this logic...</p><p></p><p>Secondly we aren't talking about something that happens ALL THE TIME. You're entirely correct, 4e has cut way back on the "it is immune to X just because we think that makes sense" thing. However, they haven't entirely, by any means, eliminated these kinds of things. They're not just annoying badwrongfun either, there is actually a good reason to have them. They allow different monsters to be more unique and interesting. What was wrong with 3e's "you may not backstab undead" was it was WAY too broad. Sure it made undead 'different', except undead are all over the place so they really didn't need a way for them ALL to be unique together. It is much more interesting if different monsters have different quirks. So big deal if swarms (a very rare monster type) can't usually be grabbed? It isn't even a blanket proscription. </p><p></p><p>As for the 'it will just spread like a virus throughout the game', meh. There is already a rule that you can't grab anything more than one size category larger than yourself anyway for instance, so this is hardly a big concern in that specific case. It isn't really clear whether a phasing creature can or cannot simply escape a grab, but there's no reason to suppose it can since it actually can't move through your space either IIRC. </p><p></p><p>My point is that the basic default ways things work ARE the best. That doesn't mean you have to slavishly adhere to them every single minute. It just means you should keep the variations to a minimum. So for instance the phasing creature can be grabbed and held because well you "can't phase through flesh" (if you need fluff for it at all). It just an exercise that the DM should be performing in his head as he runs the game, asking what will be interesting, logical, surprising, and fun. </p><p></p><p>It isn't always the most fun for things to work like X just because X is RAW every single time. Players actually LIKE to be presented with quirky challenges sometimes. You guys all act like someone spit on your mother if you're character doesn't get to do his thing EVERY SINGLE round of every combat. Knock it off! It is MORE FUN if once in a while you run into "oops! Oh Crom, now what do I do!" here and there. Call it arbitrary all you want, but when done well it is quite good for the game, just like it is often quite good for the game to give away the treasure you WANT to give away and not fill out checkboxs on Joe's wishlist all the time, etc. Half the wonder and fun of the game is stuff that you don't expect and weren't ready for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5308657, member: 82106"] 2 things strike me each time I hear this. First is that the whole "my grabby fighter will be worthless" is just overblown. In fact it was just an easy example that everyone already had in mind. We could easily talk about ANY build of any class in this vein. You can see where the reductio ad absurdum comes in here, if there are a few times when each character's specific shtick is thwarted then they're worthless? I guess ALL THE BUILDS IN THE GAME are worthless then. Obviously there is a serious flaw with this logic... Secondly we aren't talking about something that happens ALL THE TIME. You're entirely correct, 4e has cut way back on the "it is immune to X just because we think that makes sense" thing. However, they haven't entirely, by any means, eliminated these kinds of things. They're not just annoying badwrongfun either, there is actually a good reason to have them. They allow different monsters to be more unique and interesting. What was wrong with 3e's "you may not backstab undead" was it was WAY too broad. Sure it made undead 'different', except undead are all over the place so they really didn't need a way for them ALL to be unique together. It is much more interesting if different monsters have different quirks. So big deal if swarms (a very rare monster type) can't usually be grabbed? It isn't even a blanket proscription. As for the 'it will just spread like a virus throughout the game', meh. There is already a rule that you can't grab anything more than one size category larger than yourself anyway for instance, so this is hardly a big concern in that specific case. It isn't really clear whether a phasing creature can or cannot simply escape a grab, but there's no reason to suppose it can since it actually can't move through your space either IIRC. My point is that the basic default ways things work ARE the best. That doesn't mean you have to slavishly adhere to them every single minute. It just means you should keep the variations to a minimum. So for instance the phasing creature can be grabbed and held because well you "can't phase through flesh" (if you need fluff for it at all). It just an exercise that the DM should be performing in his head as he runs the game, asking what will be interesting, logical, surprising, and fun. It isn't always the most fun for things to work like X just because X is RAW every single time. Players actually LIKE to be presented with quirky challenges sometimes. You guys all act like someone spit on your mother if you're character doesn't get to do his thing EVERY SINGLE round of every combat. Knock it off! It is MORE FUN if once in a while you run into "oops! Oh Crom, now what do I do!" here and there. Call it arbitrary all you want, but when done well it is quite good for the game, just like it is often quite good for the game to give away the treasure you WANT to give away and not fill out checkboxs on Joe's wishlist all the time, etc. Half the wonder and fun of the game is stuff that you don't expect and weren't ready for. [/QUOTE]
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