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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5321691" data-attributes="member: 78116">This was done to prove a point about CS.Nope. Grab is a power. A power that grabs does not inherently use grab as a power. I'm not exactly sure why it's so confusing that a power called "grab" that is a generic power has nothing to do with how other powers that use grab as an effect work. See Bigby's Icy Grasp: The sustain relies on the condition "<a href="http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/login.aspx?page=glossary&id=405" target="_blank">grabbed</a>", yet the hit line states you grab the target. It's pretty obvious the power means "Grabbed" as in the condition, not "grab" as in another power.This is like saying a melee at-will is automatically a basic attack.That is why <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/login.aspx?page=glossary&id=405" target="_blank">grabbed is a conditio</a>n and powers that say you grab a target, do assume that condition. Again, Bigby's Icy Grasp 100% backs my interpretation. Grab is a power. Powers that grab are different powers. Grab as a power does not tell you how other powers work. There is. Perhaps you should <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/login.aspx?page=glossary&id=405" target="_blank">check the rules compendium again</a>, particularly where it says "Grabbed: Rules Condition". This pretty much demolishes every one of your arguments in this case. Also I will point out again the "Grab" you are clinging to is a power. It is not a condition, it's a power that allows you to grab a target with a certain effect line and target line. This does NOT make it a condition. The condition is grabbed and many powers assume that you have a target grabbed on a sustain line where they do: NOT that you are using the power called grab. This is an essential distinction, especially when Heroes of the Fallen Lands makes it 100% clear that grab is a generic power - like a melee basic attack, bull rush or charge (the latter two also being formatted into powers for clarity).Edit: Your logic would be sound if the power said "Make a grab attack" but they don't, it says "You grab the target", that's imposing the grabbed condition (of which I am still amazed you are disputing the existence of something linked and quoted to you several times now).</blockquote>

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