Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5321754" data-attributes="member: 71571">The only place the rules for being grabbed is mention in any of the texts is in the PHB, on page 290.  Grabbed is the result of the grab action, as presented there.  All conditions are on page 277.  Grabbed is not there.Grabbed is the effect of the grab action.  The only mention of 'grab' is the grab action.  Effects that say 'You grab the target' are evoking the grab action as much as effects that say 'You shift blah' are evoking the shift action.Regardless, you act is if the sustain on Bigby's Icy Grasp, refering to the target it has grabbed, somehow won't work if the hand invokes the grab action, which has grabbed as its result.Your argument is highly dubious.  The hand grabs the target... it takes the grab action (or uses the grab power) and executes it.  It does not say 'The target is grabbed' but calls and mentions grab by name.When you call a power or action by name, any argument that says you don't actually use that power or action is one that requires a lot more than pointing at Rules Compendium and saying 'GRABBED IS A CONDITION.'Because that's not a counter argument to the 'It says you grab, so therefore you grab'.Not at all.  However, every mention of 'Target uses a melee basic attack as a free action' is a melee basic attack.The logic here is A = A.  Tautology.And should a power state as its effect 'The target is grabbed' then I would agree that power does not evoke the rules for the grab action/power.The number of powers in the Martial Power 2 book that say 'the target is grabbed' rather than 'you grab the target' is zero.  Instead, they all say 'You grab the target.'And grab, is as you mentioned, an explicit power.1)  Don't have D&D Insider.  So all the linking in the world doesn't change it.2)  PHB, the only text rules source for grabbed, is not errata'd.(note:  Not having Insider, I've revised previous arguments to relent grabbed is a condition... it does not effect my final conclusion)3) If you have a power that says you charge a target (perfect example, barbarians) then you don't need to say 'you use a charge attack' on the target, no more than you need to say 'You use a healing word utility' or other such nonsense.  The only reason 'attack' is needed for basic attacks is because basic attacks literally have the word in the title for the power.I go by the rules texts, because that's what I have access to.  I'm sorry if I dispute the existance of something I do not have access to.  As a result, I must adjudicate using the only text available to me, where 'grabbed' is not a condition, it is never mentioned as a condition.More over, 'you grab the target' has the same signifigance as 'you use a melee basic attack'.  You're not imposing the 'attacked by a melee basic attack' condition on the target.  It says, literally, You X the target.  There is a power called X.  You use X.  You don't use X'd or X'ified or X'nologicated or some condition or effect of X in lieu of X.  You use X, because the power says 'YOU X THE Y'It's not fricken rocket science.  'You fireball the target.'  You use fireball.  'You divine challenge the target'  You use divine challenge.  'You grab the target.'  You use grab.See Commander's Strike as precedent.I'm sorry, but you need better than 'grabbed is a condition' to counter the tautology 'X is X'.</blockquote>

Verification