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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5323322" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And I've already asked you to explain how "disassociated mechanics" aren't something that plagued every single edition of D&D there has ever been. And most RPGs right from the get go. By your definition, most pre-Forge RPGs weren't.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Of course not. In chess you take an army rather than a single role. Cleudo would be a better example here. Or for that matter, using Jenga for the mechanics of a RPG. I dread to think what would happen if anyone tried that.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Most seem to simply be emphasising different aspects of the fiction from you. The Homeric Grappler being able to grab a swarm rather than the person struggling.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I do not have to re-write skill challenges as written (as long as I use the errata'd versions). All the examples of skill challenges in the book have the skill challenges actually tied to the fluff. And when done so, they work very well. Breaking them away from the fluff and turning them into dice rolling excercises is like turning Burning Wheel combat into an elaborate game of paper/scissors/stone, or Dogs in the Vineyard into pure dice rolling.</p><p> </p><p>Actually, there's one way I often change the rules for skill challenges. I normally unlock new skills on a failure rather than a success. For instance a failed check on a stealthy skill challenge can unlock bluff or nature to convince the guard that he heard a stray animal rather than e.g. a successful use of insight to unlock history as presented in the rules + examples. But that's only a minor issue.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Except if you pay attention to the rules and example skill challenges, they do. At a crude level, some skills can be used to unlock other skills because of how they are used. And the way they are used to do this is by roleplaying - i.e. by the fiction. So the fiction does have impact on the game and rules. And the rules have impact on the fiction; there's a partial failure mechanic. You fail some rolls within the challenge and that impacts on the fiction - what is happening in the challenge changes because that roll was just failed. Fail a stealth roll as part of a skill challenge and something gets noticed. Fail a diplomacy roll and someone puts their foot in it. To claim that's not the mechanics impacting the fluff is ... interesting. (This doesn't mean that the explanations aren't both poor and confusing. But that's a minor issue).</p><p> </p><p>So, Skill Challenges when actually used as indicated do precisely what you say they don't. They aren't e.g. Dogs in the Vineyard, Spirit of the Century, or Burning Wheel. And are poorly explained. And certainly not as far as the Forge would go. But the claims you are presenting here are demonstrably incorrect about skill challenges.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5323322, member: 87792"] And I've already asked you to explain how "disassociated mechanics" aren't something that plagued every single edition of D&D there has ever been. And most RPGs right from the get go. By your definition, most pre-Forge RPGs weren't. Of course not. In chess you take an army rather than a single role. Cleudo would be a better example here. Or for that matter, using Jenga for the mechanics of a RPG. I dread to think what would happen if anyone tried that. Most seem to simply be emphasising different aspects of the fiction from you. The Homeric Grappler being able to grab a swarm rather than the person struggling. I do not have to re-write skill challenges as written (as long as I use the errata'd versions). All the examples of skill challenges in the book have the skill challenges actually tied to the fluff. And when done so, they work very well. Breaking them away from the fluff and turning them into dice rolling excercises is like turning Burning Wheel combat into an elaborate game of paper/scissors/stone, or Dogs in the Vineyard into pure dice rolling. Actually, there's one way I often change the rules for skill challenges. I normally unlock new skills on a failure rather than a success. For instance a failed check on a stealthy skill challenge can unlock bluff or nature to convince the guard that he heard a stray animal rather than e.g. a successful use of insight to unlock history as presented in the rules + examples. But that's only a minor issue. Except if you pay attention to the rules and example skill challenges, they do. At a crude level, some skills can be used to unlock other skills because of how they are used. And the way they are used to do this is by roleplaying - i.e. by the fiction. So the fiction does have impact on the game and rules. And the rules have impact on the fiction; there's a partial failure mechanic. You fail some rolls within the challenge and that impacts on the fiction - what is happening in the challenge changes because that roll was just failed. Fail a stealth roll as part of a skill challenge and something gets noticed. Fail a diplomacy roll and someone puts their foot in it. To claim that's not the mechanics impacting the fluff is ... interesting. (This doesn't mean that the explanations aren't both poor and confusing. But that's a minor issue). So, Skill Challenges when actually used as indicated do precisely what you say they don't. They aren't e.g. Dogs in the Vineyard, Spirit of the Century, or Burning Wheel. And are poorly explained. And certainly not as far as the Forge would go. But the claims you are presenting here are demonstrably incorrect about skill challenges. [/QUOTE]
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