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<blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5323430" data-attributes="member: 83768">Can you give me an example of a disassociated mechanic from say, OD&amp;D? &nbsp;Using Jenga in Dread is more akin to rolling dice, not the actual mechanic being associated with the fiction. I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by disassociation. You seem to be familiar with Dogs in the Vineyard. I'd suggest reading Vincent's blog on clouds and arrows. When those real world cues, like dice and minis, have no bearing on the fiction we're imagining, that's disassociated. Or, as Justin Alexander put it, &quot;When the characters' relationship to the game world is&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; stripped away, they are no longer roles to be played. They have become&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; nothing more than mechanical artifacts that are manipulated with other&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; mechanical artifacts.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;&nbsp;The dice in Dogs in the Vineyard have a direct association with the fiction. When I push forward two dice to &quot;raise&quot;, what I say matters. If I say, &quot;I shoot him in the face&quot; and you have to See, Block or Dodge that, you have to describe HOW you did that directly in relationship to what I said. If I had said, &quot;I trip him with my polearm...&quot; you're retaliation can't be &quot;I duck&quot; like it could be in 4E. &nbsp;I'll make a quote from Mike Mearls, &quot;Then you get back to this thing which you first saw in 3rd, where everyone in the party can fly, everyone in the party can teleport, skill checks become irrelevant because everyone has the Climb feat, everyone has slippers of spider climbing, things like that. It turns the game into almost a superhero game. Which is fine, if that's your style, but it's not necessarily the default.&quot;&nbsp;Superhero games are not necessarily the default in D&amp;D. I've said many times in this post that it's important to clarify what style of game we're playing. If we're doing Dragonball Z, sure it might make sense to grapple a gargantuan swarm of humanoids... If we're doing classic Tolkien fantasy, maybe not so much. &nbsp;Like I said above, Dogs in the Vineyard can never be a dice rolling exercise. You have to say how you raise in that game. It's very important to the conflict resolution mechanics. &nbsp;I've changed the rules for skill challenges too. And, I'm not saying by default the skill challenges can't work. I'm saying I believe many of the complaints about skill challenges stem from this idea that the mechanics of rolling the dice are what matters and not the fiction, specifically from things said in this thread. There are literally people in this thread who have said, &quot;I roll Nature&quot; or &quot;I roll Arcana&quot; or &quot;I roll Diplomacy&quot; is acceptable in a skill challenge. How is a DM supposed to respond to those statements in a skill challenge? &quot;You approach the duke, and you can tell he's quite displeased with you interrupting his court this morning with the matter of the kobolds. What do you do?&quot; &quot;I make a Diplomacy check.&quot; &quot;Uh.... Ok...&quot; Like LostSoul pointed out above, even the rules seem to imply that you need to do something fictionally for a skill check to kick in. This is what I'm advocating. &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm presenting these claims directly in response to people who have said themselves that &quot;I roll skill check&quot; is acceptable means of description. You're missing out on like 10 pages of conversation that directly ties to my post.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="P1NBACK, post: 5323430, member: 83768"] Can you give me an example of a disassociated mechanic from say, OD&D? Using Jenga in Dread is more akin to rolling dice, not the actual mechanic being associated with the fiction. I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by disassociation. You seem to be familiar with Dogs in the Vineyard. I'd suggest reading Vincent's blog on clouds and arrows. When those real world cues, like dice and minis, have no bearing on the fiction we're imagining, that's disassociated. Or, as Justin Alexander put it, "When the characters' relationship to the game world is stripped away, they are no longer roles to be played. They have become nothing more than mechanical artifacts that are manipulated with other mechanical artifacts. " The dice in Dogs in the Vineyard have a direct association with the fiction. When I push forward two dice to "raise", what I say matters. If I say, "I shoot him in the face" and you have to See, Block or Dodge that, you have to describe HOW you did that directly in relationship to what I said. If I had said, "I trip him with my polearm..." you're retaliation can't be "I duck" like it could be in 4E. I'll make a quote from Mike Mearls, "Then you get back to this thing which you first saw in 3rd, where everyone in the party can fly, everyone in the party can teleport, skill checks become irrelevant because everyone has the Climb feat, everyone has slippers of spider climbing, things like that. It turns the game into almost a superhero game. Which is fine, if that's your style, but it's not necessarily the default." Superhero games are not necessarily the default in D&D. I've said many times in this post that it's important to clarify what style of game we're playing. If we're doing Dragonball Z, sure it might make sense to grapple a gargantuan swarm of humanoids... If we're doing classic Tolkien fantasy, maybe not so much. Like I said above, Dogs in the Vineyard can never be a dice rolling exercise. You have to say how you raise in that game. It's very important to the conflict resolution mechanics. I've changed the rules for skill challenges too. And, I'm [I]not[/I] saying by default the skill challenges [I]can't[/I] work. I'm saying I believe many of the complaints about skill challenges stem from this idea that the mechanics of rolling the dice are what matters and not the fiction, specifically from things said in this thread. There are literally people in this thread who have said, "I roll Nature" or "I roll Arcana" or "I roll Diplomacy" is acceptable in a skill challenge. How is a DM supposed to respond to those statements in a skill challenge? "You approach the duke, and you can tell he's quite displeased with you interrupting his court this morning with the matter of the kobolds. What do you do?" "I make a Diplomacy check." "Uh.... Ok..." Like LostSoul pointed out above, even the rules seem to imply that you need to do something fictionally for a skill check to kick in. This is what I'm advocating. I'm presenting these claims directly in response to people who have said themselves that "I roll skill check" is acceptable means of description. You're missing out on like 10 pages of conversation that directly ties to my post. [/QUOTE]

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