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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5323670" data-attributes="member: 87792">Cutting a long story short, we are in fundamental agreement about what to do with 4e.&nbsp; Where we are in disagreement is about what 4e is.&nbsp; I am arguing that disassociating the mechanics in 4e, especially for skill challenges, is every bit as much houseruling as roleplaying in Cleudo.&nbsp; You are arguing that because you can disassociate the rules and still play the game the rules are fundamentally disassociated.&nbsp;And re: Dogs, it's an ettiquette question.&nbsp; &quot;I raise my gun, pointed at his face, and pull the trigger.&quot;&nbsp; Fine.&nbsp; &quot;I draw and shoot, aiming for his face.&quot;&nbsp; Fine.&nbsp; &quot;I shoot him in the face.&quot;&nbsp; If this gets reversed it will need a complete re-write, so not fine.&nbsp; &nbsp;If, instead of throwing three dice to take the blow one dice with a 9 was used to reverse the blow the original &quot;I shoot him in the face&quot; wouldn't have worked at all and so would need revising.&nbsp; With &quot;I raise my gun, pointed at his face, and pull the trigger.&quot; that isn't a problem.&nbsp; With &quot;I shoot him in the face&quot;, it now never happened.&nbsp; The shot did not hit in the face.&nbsp; So it needs a redo.&nbsp; (That said, I'd expect it to proceed the way you outline - I just consider it poor form).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5323670, member: 87792"] Cutting a long story short, we are in fundamental agreement about what to do with 4e. Where we are in disagreement is about what 4e is. I am arguing that disassociating the mechanics in 4e, especially for skill challenges, is every bit as much houseruling as roleplaying in Cleudo. You are arguing that because you can disassociate the rules and still play the game the rules are fundamentally disassociated. And re: Dogs, it's an ettiquette question. "I raise my gun, pointed at his face, and pull the trigger." Fine. "I draw and shoot, aiming for his face." Fine. "I shoot him in the face." If this gets reversed it will need a complete re-write, so not fine. If, instead of throwing three dice to take the blow one dice with a 9 was used to reverse the blow the original "I shoot him in the face" wouldn't have worked at all and so would need revising. With "I raise my gun, pointed at his face, and pull the trigger." that isn't a problem. With "I shoot him in the face", it now never happened. The shot did not hit in the face. So it needs a redo. (That said, I'd expect it to proceed the way you outline - I just consider it poor form). [/QUOTE]

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