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<blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 5326568" data-attributes="member: 65152">I'm going to reverse your own argument.&nbsp; This is an example of the mechanics overriding the fiction.DM: I shoot you in the face!PC: Oh no you don't!DM: Yes I do!PC: No you don't because...You're bitching about disassociated fiction and then provide an example of disassociated fiction to &quot;prove&quot; what exactly?This is true because the &quot;Mechanics&quot; have trumped the fiction.&nbsp; You made your dice rolls and now you're just narrating the outcome.&nbsp; I really don't see any difference between this and 4e.&nbsp; Feel free to elaborate.That wasn't a swarm.&nbsp; That was lots and lots of (1st? 5th? level) minions and a level (30?) solo.&nbsp; Of course they scattered.I now think that your main complaint about 4e combat is it's level of abstraction.PC: I have this ability that lets me to A, B, and C if I hit.DM: OK.&nbsp; You hit the creature and it falls A, looks B, and takes C damage.The only difference between this and your example is the level of complexity involved before arriving at the outcome.Another analogy would be if you're comparing the 3e &quot;full attack&quot; to 4e powers.&nbsp; They simplified a complex resolution mechanic (making multiple attack and damage rolls) and instead made attacks that just do more damage (the end result).&nbsp; I was with you up till this last post and now I'm thinking that you've shifted what you're arguing against.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CovertOps, post: 5326568, member: 65152"] I'm going to reverse your own argument. This is an example of the mechanics overriding the fiction. DM: I shoot you in the face! PC: Oh no you don't! DM: Yes I do! PC: No you don't because... You're bitching about disassociated fiction and then provide an example of disassociated fiction to "prove" what exactly? This is true because the "Mechanics" have trumped the fiction. You made your dice rolls and now you're just narrating the outcome. I really don't see any difference between this and 4e. Feel free to elaborate. That wasn't a swarm. That was lots and lots of (1st? 5th? level) minions and a level (30?) solo. Of course they scattered. I now think that your main complaint about 4e combat is it's level of abstraction. PC: I have this ability that lets me to A, B, and C if I hit. DM: OK. You hit the creature and it falls A, looks B, and takes C damage. The only difference between this and your example is the level of complexity involved before arriving at the outcome. Another analogy would be if you're comparing the 3e "full attack" to 4e powers. They simplified a complex resolution mechanic (making multiple attack and damage rolls) and instead made attacks that just do more damage (the end result). I was with you up till this last post and now I'm thinking that you've shifted what you're arguing against. [/QUOTE]

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