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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5326714" data-attributes="member: 87792">On thinking about it, Dogs in the Vineyard has the most dissasociated set of mechanics anywhere, ever.&nbsp; There is not one single arrow leading from the mechanics into the fluff or the fluff into the mechanics.&nbsp;The resolution mechanics of DiTV are simply an abstract concealed auction dice game with elements of luck, chicken, and Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma (defect = fists or guns).&nbsp; And have absolutely nothing to do with what is going on in the world (in flat contrast to either 4e or Spirit of the Century where the narrative directly impacts the mechanics (terrain and aspects)).&nbsp; The only point in DiTV where the mechanics feed directly into the fluff is if there's enough fallout for character death.&nbsp;What the mechanics in DiTV provide are an excellent and flexible framework around which you can build your story.&nbsp; They are therefore dissasociated mechanics done right.&nbsp; They work well.&nbsp; But that doesn't for one second mean they aren't disassociated.&nbsp;To provide a further example, I can look at a photograph of a 4e battlemap with conditions marked and tell you roughly what is going on.&nbsp; The fluff comes directly out of the mechanics.&nbsp; If I just look at DiTV, I see two people rolling dice.&nbsp; That is disassociated in the way that 4e is not.&nbsp; Hell, it's more dissasociated than Monopoly - in Monopoly I can see the properties and who owns them.&nbsp; I can tell you who the slum landlord is, who's down on his luck, and who the fat cat rolling in dosh is.&nbsp; (Often the slum landlord).&nbsp; And who just wants to play with model trains writ large.&nbsp;This doesn't mean that DiTV isn't integrated.&nbsp; It's got a very bare scaffold which is used to great effect.&nbsp; But the mechanics are fundamentally, thoroughly, and completely dissasociated.&nbsp; There is nothing there except an abstract dice rolling game.&nbsp; Still, it's a great RPG precisely because the skeleton is so bare.&nbsp;The problem listed with 4e isn't dissasociation.&nbsp; It's all the noise.&nbsp; The arrows fly thick and fast in all directions, repeatedly bypassing the players.&nbsp; 4e comes with a rhythm of its own, and many people find this rhythm and bassline very enjoyable without wanting a melody over the top.&nbsp; Or without finding room to fit a melody over the top.&nbsp; Both happen.&nbsp; (I like the rhythm and the melodies I can make.&nbsp; But it isn't for everyone - and I'm glad to see the Essentials Martial classes where the baseline is often a military march rather than Rock Opera).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5326714, member: 87792"] On thinking about it, Dogs in the Vineyard has the most dissasociated set of mechanics anywhere, ever. There is not one single arrow leading from the mechanics into the fluff or the fluff into the mechanics. The resolution mechanics of DiTV are simply an abstract concealed auction dice game with elements of luck, chicken, and Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma (defect = fists or guns). And have absolutely nothing to do with what is going on in the world (in flat contrast to either 4e or Spirit of the Century where the narrative directly impacts the mechanics (terrain and aspects)). The [I]only[/I] point in DiTV where the mechanics feed directly into the fluff is if there's enough fallout for character death. What the mechanics in DiTV provide are an excellent and flexible framework around which you can build your story. They are therefore dissasociated mechanics done [I]right[/I]. They work well. But that doesn't for one second mean they aren't disassociated. To provide a further example, I can look at a photograph of a 4e battlemap with conditions marked and tell you roughly what is going on. The fluff comes directly out of the mechanics. If I just look at DiTV, I see two people rolling dice. That is disassociated in the way that 4e is not. Hell, it's more dissasociated than Monopoly - in Monopoly I can see the properties and who owns them. I can tell you who the slum landlord is, who's down on his luck, and who the fat cat rolling in dosh is. (Often the slum landlord). And who just wants to play with model trains writ large. This doesn't mean that DiTV isn't integrated. It's got a very bare scaffold which is used to great effect. But the [I]mechanics[/I] are fundamentally, thoroughly, and completely dissasociated. There is [I]nothing[/I] there except an abstract dice rolling game. Still, it's a great RPG precisely [I]because[/I] the skeleton is so bare. The problem listed with 4e isn't dissasociation. It's all the noise. The arrows fly thick and fast in all directions, repeatedly bypassing the players. 4e comes with a rhythm of its own, and many people find this rhythm and bassline very enjoyable without wanting a melody over the top. Or without finding room to fit a melody over the top. Both happen. (I like the rhythm and the melodies I can make. But it isn't for everyone - and I'm glad to see the Essentials Martial classes where the baseline is often a military march rather than Rock Opera). [/QUOTE]

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