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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5328473" data-attributes="member: 71571">So let me see if I am getting this right... in Dogs (I'm not intimately familiar with it, so bear with me...)... you have this thing called Fallout which is a mechanic to model a negative consequence, yes?And, judging by how it's described, this same game mechanic can be used to describe the effects of a gun, of an argument, of a psychic attack, pretty much anything intended to harm in any abstract way.  So, what you have in Dogs is an abstract mechanic that inherently does not attempt to model any specific narrative, but instead, is used to adjudicate a number of narrative that could result, with an agent deciding the narrative interpretation of that mechanic's resolved effect.And yet, you have people claiming that somehow this system is more inherently tied to the fiction than D&D4th edition, claiming that its effects do not model narrative because it's an abstract mechanic that inherently does not attempt to model any specific narrative, but instead, is used to adjudicate a number of fictions that could result, with an agent deciding the narrative interpretation of that mechanic's resolved effect.I just can't follow where you guys are going with that.... the difference in 4th and Dogs is that Dogs has its abstraction fed by specific narratives, and 4th has its specific narrative fed by abstraction.As an example, 'weakened' does not represent a specific thing.  It can mean any number of different narratives, maybe you're disoriented, maybe you're numb with pain, or maybe you're cursed by an evil necromancer.  Expecting the mechanics to be that specific is missing the point... they're supposed to be flexible in the same manner as Fallout.  The narrative is present, however, as it is informed by the context of those mechanics.  Take the example of the Cleave.  Cleave is an attack with a weapon that hits one guy, and somehow damage is applied to a second.  It can mean that you stab with a knife and then kick his friend, or it could mean that you hack someone with an axe, and the follow thru grazes his buddy.  Shield represents an arcane means of defending yourself against attacks that are not based on your toughness or strength of will.This does not mean that the narrative cannot exist... it means that context must be provided that fills in the details.  The cleaver could be a sword and board fighter, and the shielder could be a fire mage.  Informed by that, the narrative could be that the fighter's technique of hitting a guy then shield bashing his friend was stymied by a sudden explosion of heat, causing a flinch throwing off his attack.  The cleaver could be a execution-axe wielding berserker, and the shilder could be a mage specialized in summoning.  In that case, the axe could be swung in a wild circle, only to be stopped by a split second summoning of an armored knight-angel parrying it with his massive holy sword.In both games, the narrative context is supported by flexible rules that are designed to handle multiple contexts.  Each individual context does not require its own mechanic--in fact, the best games at describing a narrative have eschewed specificity in mechanics for more general mechanics that require a context in order to function.Spirit of the Century, for example, is a game where there's only a handful of mechanics, but they all interact with the contexts of the world around them.  Your character has aspects, and from a narrative standpoint, the narrative informs the resolution of conflicts implicitly.  If I have the Aspect 'Shoot first, ask questions later' then when I need a burst of speed to gun down antagonists, that aspect can kick in to help me.  If I'm trying to interrogate someone, that aspect will bite me in the ass.  But here's the rub; the mechanic involved doesn't change whether that aspect is called 'Shoot first, ask questions later' or 'Women.  The cause of and solution to all my problems.' or 'I am the second smartest man in the world.'The mechanic -itself- does not have -any- bearing on the fiction... it's the -context- of that narrative that informs the fiction, with the mechanic merely there to give that context a mechanical effect.That's why if I have a swordmage and a fighter both use a power that pulls an enemy, and shifts them one square, that I know they are different abilities.  The context of the narrative before their use of that power decides the narrative after they've used the power.  The power itself is merely the vehicle for that context to affect the mechanics.</blockquote>

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