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Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5328997" data-attributes="member: 83768">Let me address all of these posts as a whole instead of individually. I think some big points are being missed. 1: I think some people are misunderstanding the word 'disassociated'. I've even seen a recent blog post by Keith Baker where he compares "Simulationism" in direct contrast to disassociated mechanics. It's a false dichotomy - and I think it's being used here also. Disassociated mechanics aren't mechanics that are "abstract". They are rules that function entirely outside of the realm of fiction. Abstract =/= Disassociated (although it can). Simulationist =/= Associated (although it can).2: No one here is saying that all of 4E's mechanics are disassociated. Most of the mechanics in 4E are associated with the fiction. Someone earlier cited the fact that you need to know fictionally what kind of weapon you are using so you can apply your damage dice correctly. This is an example of an associated mechanic. Yes. 4E has these. Not all of 4E is disassociated. 3: Many of us consider parts of 4E disassociated (in some ways, mostly in combat) because there are portions of the game where what you are imagining can have no bearing on what is happening with the real world cues (dice, maps, figures, condition markers, etc...). You can literally play a 4E combat using no fiction, no imagined events. All those things are dice on the right and they can directly ignore the clouds on the left. You can play it exactly like you can play HeroQuest (a boardgame). This is why Dogs is entirely associated. You simply cannot play it without imagining what is going on in the fiction - and it has to be communicated to everyone clearly at the table so that they can apply the rules correctly. 4: You don't have to play 4E this way, nor at all times. If you play where there is fiction (by having players describe their actions), you can allow things to occur outside of the realm of the real world cues. I can say, "Well, I want to swing across this chandelier and kick the guy in the face..." or "I want to pick up a board and use it to corral the rats back into the hole..." or whatever. This is why page 42 of the DMG is so important (yet so often overlooked) because it opens up the game and allows those fictional events to have an impact on the game. It's also why it's so important for the fiction to matter (instead of just saying Grab is not actually fictionally grabbing something, but Condition Red) and to break the rules (albeit in a consistent way that everyone at the table agrees with). 5: If you haven't played Dogs in the Vineyard. Buy it. It's cheap. And, play it. You'll see what LostSoul and I mean when we say the game breaks down when there is no imagined events. It's really the game that opened up my mind about what an RPG can do and how to not only play, but how to GM. I think that covers the broadest points I wanted to get across.</blockquote>

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