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Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5331435" data-attributes="member: 83768">I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but my first instinct is to say, "I like vanilla and chocolate." Using a 4E power is not the fiction. I disagree with that. It can produce fiction, if we describe it (most people here are arguing against description). What weapon I am using and my "At-Will 1st Level Attack Power" are two different things. No. You roll all the dice before you determine the fiction in Dogs. Literally. In 4E, I announce my intent, "I lunge at him striking both my swords on either side of his neck..." Then, we determine what happens. I roll a d20, and whether it's a success or a failure we determine the effect. I'm kind of confused because "outcome" and "effect" are usually used interchangeably. Do you mean "intent" and "effect"? In D&D, dice are never used to determine whether an action occurs. I say, "I climb up the wall..." When do I roll dice? Not until the DM says, "Ok. The DC to climb the wall is 15, give me an Athletics check." So, my action began before we rolled dice. Then, we determine how effective my action was. Intent (to climb the wall), the DM acknowledges that with an "Ok." meaning, I (my character) begins to climb the wall. Then, the DM wants to determine how effective I was at climbg. So, he sets a DC and I roll the dice. We look at the dice and determine success or failure. I rolled an 18. So, the DM says, "Yeah, you climb up and over the wall." The effect. Not quite accurate. You will try to shoot him in the face. It's the same as saying, "I stab him" in D&D. You are trying to stab him. Only, in Dogs, you push forward the dice (roll beforehand) before you announce your action. In D&D, you roll afterward. Let's do two examples: Dogs. The setup. We're outside my brother, Sam, his barn. He's got his wife, Molly, snatched up by the hair. He caught her cheating and he's got a big shotgun to her head. We set the stakes, "Does he let Molly go?" I could talk to him, but I don't wanna. I want go in guns blazing. I roll my "gun fighting dice" which is maybe 5d6 and 2d6+1d4 (for my gun). I roll a 3, 2, 5, 1, 1 and a 6, 2, 1. Right? I order my dice from highest to lowest. I have 6, 5, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1. Notice I've rolled my dice before I decided to "do" anything. The only thing we've determined is what arena we're in (guns) because he's got a gun and I'm planning on using my gun. At first, at least. I push forward two dice. A 6 and a 5. That's a total of 11. That's my "attack roll" called a Raise in dogs (poker style yah?). The dice have been rolled. I can't say, "I attack!" That's a player action right? So, I say, "I draw my gun and shoot the shotgun right out of his hands." I describe my attack fictionally. That's my character's action. The GM then looks at his dice. He has 3 options, he can Reverse the Blow (but only if he has one single die that can match 11), or he can See/block (by pushing forward two dice of his own that match 11), or he can Take the Blow (if he has to use three or more dice to match my 11). Let's go with the See/block. Because, this is the example where the "I shoot him..." does not mean you WILL shoot him just because you are saying you want to. So, the GM looks at his dice. He has two 6s. Easily blocks my 11 I put forward. So, he pushes forward his two sixes. Oh no, he says. Sam blocks that crap. But, how? We gotta know how. "I block" just isn't good enough. So, the GM describes, "Just as you draw your gun, Sam spins Molly in front of him and pushes her out toward you, using her as cover. You stop before you fire knowing you'll hit her if you do." Sam just blocked. So, "I shoot his shotgun out of his hand..." gets blocked (much like in D&D I can block your attack with a shield or something). Because it wasn't "I shoot his shotgun..." it was "I try to shoot his shotgun..." Right? With me so far? Let's do D&D. We're outside the barn still. Sam's not there. But, Molly is. She's got a kobold leader there holding her captive. He's got a rusty blade against her throat. What's the stakes? I don't know. Kill the kobold and save the girl? We don't determine those. But, I'm dead set on not talking to this kobold (hell, I don't speak Draconic anyways). So, instead I want to attack, swords blazing. We roll initiative or whatever, and let's assume I win. No dice have been rolled. Instead, I look at my sheet and I've got these At-Will powers. One of them is called Iron Tide or whatever. I know that pushing the kobold will end his grab on Molly. Say, I say, "I move 5 squares up to the kobold and I use Iron Tide." (not, I try to use Iron Tide...) Using Iron Tide is not a fictional action. It's a player action. Fictionally, it might be, "I slam my shield against the kobold hoping to release his grasp on Molly." But, I don't have to say that. Not like in Dogs. I don't need to say that for the action to be resolved. Then, we determine what dice we use. A d20 yeah? It's Str vs. Fort or something right? So, I roll a d20 and get a 5 plus my Str and modifiers and all that. Let's say, +6. So, I get an 11. I tell the DM. The DM has two options. Either the attack hits or misses. He says, well, the kobold's got a 14 Fort, so you definitely miss. So, what's the difference? Not as much as you're thinking. 1. In both system, "I do this..." has an unstated "try" in there. I use Iron Tide. I shoot the shotgun out of his hands. Neither one goes through unless the dice say so. In 4E, it's my attack roll dice vs. his static defense. In Dogs, it's my attack dice vs. his block dice. Not really much difference in resolution. The reason we don't have to say "I try" is because most of the time those fictional actions will just happen. "I walk over to the man..." I don't have to say, "I try to walk over to the man..." Not unless... Someone is trying to block me. Right? "I walk over to the man..." Wait! I stop him. You do? Yeah... "I grab his shoulder before he gets out of reach..." That's what dice are for in RPGs. They're to resolve differences of what we want to happen in the fiction. If I want to walk over to the man, and you want to stop me. Well, we've got a difference of opinion right? But, if you don't want to stop me, we just continue with play. We all agree it happens. And, so it does. 2. In Dogs, we roll the dice before we determine our intent. In 4E, we roll the dice after we've determined our intent. 3. In Dogs, the fiction is required to go on. In 4E, the fiction can be ignored entirely. Does this help? Honestly, there's a lot more nuances that you need to know in Dogs. Like, when we have a conflict, we're not determining how effective our actions are. We're determining how effective we are at reaching the stakes. Just explaining the dice resolution mechanics isn't going to give you the whole picture here. The best you can do for yourself to really understand the differences is pick up a copy of Dogs and play the game for yourself as a one-shot or something.</blockquote>

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