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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5331676" data-attributes="member: 82106">Except that 4e is VERY concrete in its mechanics. So a ladder, flanking, prone, etc are all not just fictional components of the game world, they are also mechanical components of the game. In fact the rules have generalized ways to create these mechanical proxies for the fiction. Ladder isn't actually in the rules, but you can easily construct it in accordance with the encounter design guidelines for terrain. It can also have properties as an object, etc.In DiTV you REALLY could consider it to be basically the same way. Guns are mechanical constructs, as are cliffs, etc. They are a lot less concrete because the rules utilize a higher level of abstraction. Thus you can't get a narrative out of the mechanics. I won't really argue about whether or not the mechanics can work at all without narrative in DiTV but it is clear that even if they can at some level it is hair splitting since it would never work in practice. While 4e's concrete low level mechanics DO allow for the players to simply use the mechanics to describe their actions I really have to wonder if anyone can seriously call this a very meaningful distinction. 4e without added player narrative is pretty bland, but you could as easily play DiTV with people that don't supply you with much narrative either, just enough to get by with. So really we're talking about play style differences here, not anything dictated by rules. You can definitely argue that DiTV might encourage a more in-depth narrative but it isn't a point that can be demonstrated by logic, it depends on the players.The thing is the whole argument stemmed from the house ruling debate point about how mechanics in 4e can produce nonsensical results that can't be narrated or seem absurd and out of keeping with the setting. If you take the position that the fiction is preeminent and the mechanics serve that, then is there really ANY significant difference between DiTV and 4e at a basic level? Not much. Sure, you roll dice first in one and later in the other, but I don't see where that's really all that significant. You could roll a d20 in 4e and then describe your actions too, it wouldn't change the game much. In fact this is EXACTLY what I do in the case of largely narrative player actions in 4e anyway. Want to bribe the gatekeeper? OK, what skill do you want to use and how do you try to use it? Roll a d20. Narrate the result. If you think about it, this is still how combat works too.</blockquote>

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