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Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5331683" data-attributes="member: 83768">Oh, I agree! It's when you say that a ladder isn't a ladder, instead it's Condition Red that gets me. Remember, that's what this conversation is in the context of. In my game, a ladder is a ladder. And, it can be represented mechanically. Guess what? In my games, grabbing something is grabbed something. And, it too can be represented mechanically (with the Grab attack). People are arguing against this stance is my point. They are arguing that there is no "fictional" grab. It's Attack Blue imposing Condition Red. Remember? Exactly. I agree. Abstraction does not equal disassociation. Some people are getting this confused. Enough to get by is enough. That's the thing. No one is judging what you say, so long as you say it. Tell me how you attack when you push forward two dice. Tell me how you use Iron Tide when you declare it and roll the d20. Same thing. Only, DitV doesn't function without it. 4E can. That's the only distinction. No. Description in Dogs is most definitely dictated by the rules. And, in 4E, as LostSoul pointed out, it is for skills also. The problem (for me) comes in combat. But, this isn't a problem for everyone! Some people don't want that fiction there. They want to switch to a tactical miniatures game. That's FINE! Agreed. 100%. At a basic level, no. Not much difference (as far as resolution). But, that's if you play that way. The difference comes in that DitV kind of requires you to play that way. 4E doesn't. It's not. At all. Some people were just asking about the comparison, so I explained the difference. It does change the game though. Maybe not by "much", but it does. But, like you said, it's not really significant when it comes to the other concerns like fictional merit and disassociated mechanics and what it means to actually be playing a roleplaying game. Here's how I know when I play 4E that it's a roleplaying game. Because in combat, my players can always ignore the "powers" they have and do something entirely outside of the box, outside of the mechanics, and outside of the prescribed actions - and 4E gives us the tools to resolve it (page 42 DMG). That's how I know. If you ignore those things, that's when it becomes a "board game" to me. If you ignore the ability to bend the rules to the fictional actions, you're ignoring the roleplaying game in 4E.</blockquote>

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