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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5332354" data-attributes="member: 22779">I'm not explaining well enough.Anything that is not mechanically determined, the player can narrate in any way he feels, and it will not change things in the slightest.&nbsp; Move up to an opponent - not mechanically determined (other than distance I suppose).&nbsp; I can narrate that as I move quickly, I move carefully or I breakdance up, it doesn't change anything.Determine the target of my attack - not mechanically determined.&nbsp; I can say whatever I want, so long as I indicate a target.&nbsp; I can declare that I'm trying to stab him in the eye, but, until such time as the dice are rolled, it doesn't really matter.Declare my attack power - again, not mechanically determined.&nbsp; I can narrate this however the heck I want and it won't change a single thing.Then the dice are rolled.&nbsp; Now the narrative is 100% controlled by the dice.&nbsp; No matter how I narrated, in any version of D&amp;D, I have a set attack bonus vs a target number.&nbsp; If I meet or exceed the target number, I hit and do damage.&nbsp; And, this is why you cannot narrate before the attack.&nbsp; &quot;I try to stab him in the eye!&nbsp; I hit!&nbsp; I do 1 point of damage... Umm...&quot;&nbsp; A stab to the eye should be somewhat more damaging than that shouldn't it?&nbsp; It should have a greater effect.&nbsp; But, the dice and the mechanics tell you that all you've done is remove one hit point and that's it.&nbsp; The mechanics dictate that, even though you hit your target, you succeeded in what you intended to do, it does not have the intended effect.&nbsp; The mechanics narrate that you barely graze him, if you even made contact at all.And this is true of EVERY mechanically determined event in D&amp;D.&nbsp; And it's true in most RPG's actually.&nbsp; Look at GURPS.&nbsp; In combat, I can't even declare that I stab him in the eye.&nbsp; That's entirely randomly determined.&nbsp; Make the attack, hit, roll the hit location, roll the damage, determine any add on effects.&nbsp; (GURPS combat is a trifle on the slow side <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />)&nbsp; The only thing the player can really narrate is &quot;I attack him with my _____&quot; and that's about it.Fair enough.&nbsp; There are a number of elements that are somewhat tied to the fiction.&nbsp; Note, though, those mechanical advantages don't necessarily have to be tied to concrete examples.&nbsp; &quot;I get behind him&quot; for example, doesn't actually work unless there's another guy to flank with.&nbsp; You can narrate, &quot;I get behind him&quot; until the cows come home but, unless there's another warm body opposite you, you can't.The mechanics won't let you.No, none of those things actually help you climb the wall.&nbsp; If you get a ladder, you are no longer climbing the wall.&nbsp; Same with a knotted rope actually.&nbsp; You've moved the goalposts here.&nbsp; You've changed the original set up by adding in additional elements that actually change the challenge.However, you don't actually start climbing the rope (ladders don't require a check so you can narrate it however you like) until you roll the dice. I can narrate flying up the tied rope all I like, but, until I roll the dice, my narration doesn't mean anything.&nbsp; How far up that rope I go is entirely governed by the mechanics and not my narration.It's been a long discussion.&nbsp; I really can't recall.&nbsp; What was I arguing against?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5332354, member: 22779"] I'm not explaining well enough. Anything that is not mechanically determined, the player can narrate in any way he feels, and it will not change things in the slightest. Move up to an opponent - not mechanically determined (other than distance I suppose). I can narrate that as I move quickly, I move carefully or I breakdance up, it doesn't change anything. Determine the target of my attack - not mechanically determined. I can say whatever I want, so long as I indicate a target. I can declare that I'm trying to stab him in the eye, but, until such time as the dice are rolled, it doesn't really matter. Declare my attack power - again, not mechanically determined. I can narrate this however the heck I want and it won't change a single thing. Then the dice are rolled. Now the narrative is 100% controlled by the dice. No matter how I narrated, in any version of D&D, I have a set attack bonus vs a target number. If I meet or exceed the target number, I hit and do damage. And, this is why you cannot narrate before the attack. "I try to stab him in the eye! I hit! I do 1 point of damage... Umm..." A stab to the eye should be somewhat more damaging than that shouldn't it? It should have a greater effect. But, the dice and the mechanics tell you that all you've done is remove one hit point and that's it. The mechanics dictate that, even though you hit your target, you succeeded in what you intended to do, it does not have the intended effect. The mechanics narrate that you barely graze him, if you even made contact at all. And this is true of EVERY mechanically determined event in D&D. And it's true in most RPG's actually. Look at GURPS. In combat, I can't even declare that I stab him in the eye. That's entirely randomly determined. Make the attack, hit, roll the hit location, roll the damage, determine any add on effects. (GURPS combat is a trifle on the slow side :D) The only thing the player can really narrate is "I attack him with my _____" and that's about it. Fair enough. There are a number of elements that are somewhat tied to the fiction. Note, though, those mechanical advantages don't necessarily have to be tied to concrete examples. "I get behind him" for example, doesn't actually work unless there's another guy to flank with. You can narrate, "I get behind him" until the cows come home but, unless there's another warm body opposite you, you can't. The mechanics won't let you. No, none of those things actually help you climb the wall. If you get a ladder, you are no longer climbing the wall. Same with a knotted rope actually. You've moved the goalposts here. You've changed the original set up by adding in additional elements that actually change the challenge. However, you don't actually start climbing the rope (ladders don't require a check so you can narrate it however you like) until you roll the dice. I can narrate flying up the tied rope all I like, but, until I roll the dice, my narration doesn't mean anything. How far up that rope I go is entirely governed by the mechanics and not my narration. It's been a long discussion. I really can't recall. What was I arguing against? [/QUOTE]

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