Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5338276" data-attributes="member: 83768">Yup. We totally disagree on this. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> As far as I'm concerned, what you say happens, until we have a contention at the table. I walk over to the captain. Happens. I walk over to the captain. No wait, I grab your arm and say, "Hold on a sec." Someone has contended. Therefore, the action doesn't happen at this point. UNLESS. The walking person contends with THAT action. No way, I dodge his arm and continue walking. Ok. NOW we need mechanics. Now we need dice. You've started walking and he's started trying to grab your arm to stop you. Let's find out what happens. By your rules, he can't start grabbing my arm until he rolls dice, but why would he need to roll dice unless I'm stopping him (or attempting to stop him)??? Doesn't make any sense unless you roll dice for every. single. action. in the game. And this is my point. What actions are determined by the mechanics? None unless someone disagrees with the outcome. If I say, "I kill the kobold" and everyone else at the table says, "Yup. You do." Then there's no action there that needs to be determined by any mechanics. You just do it. No. It's not. It's not true in any RPG. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul>There could be checks for running up to the orc. It depends on... the fiction. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> "I run up to the orc" Fiction"Well, there's a pit trap..." Fiction"Ok, as I get close to the pit trap I leap over it..." Fiction"Ok, move your mini up to the edge of the pit trap and give me an athletics check."Mechanics"Ok, I got a 7." Mechanics"Yeah, that fails." Mechanics"As you leap over the pit trap you make it just to the other side, but you can tell instantly, you're too short. You land hitting hard against the other side, but try as you might to grasp onto something you fall into the pit. Falling, you see spikes at the bottom... they look coated in some kind of sticky substance." Fiction"The trap gets to make an attack now. It got a 22 vs. your Reflex. I take it that's a hit?" Mechanics"As you hit the bottom of the pit, a spike also punctures your left arm and you feel the sticky substance seeping into the wound." Fiction"You take 10 damage and 5 ongoing poison." MechanicIt's pretty simple to see here. The mechanics resolve the fiction. I can't believe I'm having to explain this. How can you possible know what to roll if you don't know what the fiction is? "Roll an Athletics check." "What? Why?""To see if you fall in or not." "What? I haven't done anything." "Well, you're going to jump over it right?" "But, I haven't tried that." "Oh. Well, what do you want to do?" "I uh... jump over the pit." "Ok. Roll for Athletics." "To see if I jump?" "Uh... No. I guess not. To see if you make it. You're already jumping." <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul>No. It's not mechanical. Me slamming my shield isn't mechanical. It's fictional. It just so happens I have a "power" that allows me to resolve that. But, what if I didn't? Can I not do that action fictionally? Of course not!This is why the description (fiction) is so important. I slam my shield into the orc and try to push him back. Well, do you have a power? No. Ok. Lemme pull up page 42! No it doesn't. "I swing my sword at him..." I'm not rolling dice to see if I swing my sword. I'm rolling dice to see how effective I swing my sword. If I were rolling dice to see if I could swing my sword, it'd go like this: I swing my sword! No, you don't. Roll dice. Ok! I got a 21!Ok, now you swing your sword! Cool! What happens? I don't know. Over whether I swing my sword? Of course I do. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> It changes if I don't have Iron Tide.Unless I don't have that power right? As a player, I say: "I want to run up to the orc and thrash at him with my axe hoping to scare him away from Jim the Wizard!" Tell, me. How do you adjudicate that? No. Really. What do you say to that player? I'm not talking about being "fluffy" and "flavorful". I'm talking about describing fictional events. "I swing my sword at him..." is fictional. And, in most cases it works. We know what weapon you're using, we know what attack you're using (in 4E, it'd be Melee basic attack). The mechanics then help us resolve how effective (do I hit?) the attack is. This is so out of sync with what I think makes a roleplaying game and experience, I have no clue how to respond. I'm just flabbergasted that people would consider this roleplaying. I can't do anything except what's mechanically present? That's not roleplaying. That's a board game. And, that's my point. Putting "fluff" or "flavor" on it, as you put it, does not make it a roleplaying game. We can't agree on that, so talking about roleplaying games (4E) is a meaningless discussion. This is the crux of this argument.</blockquote>

Verification