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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5338465" data-attributes="member: 87792">Therefore the action you indicated never happened.  That is the problem.  And now we are actually getting into the core difference between Monopoly and a RPG.  In Monopoly, that which isn't permitted is forbidden.  In DiTV that which isn't forbidden is permitted (a.k.a. "Roll the dice or say yes").  It has nothing to do with how associated or not the mechanics are.  If you don't oppose it's an automatic success - but choosing not to oppose was still a decision point.  By "someone" you mean to include the physics of the world?  I'm pretty sure the kobold is going to object unless he's helpless... And as we can see, the mechanics feed directly into the fiction - and the fiction feeds directly into the mechanics.  Thus it's associated.  DiTV doesn't have the fiction feeding directly into the mechanics - it always requires an intermediary. Tying backwards, there's a world of difference between "I swing my sword at him" and "I shoot him in the face".  Is he a fighter?  Serious question.  If not, page 42 with something intimidate based.  (MBA + intimidate check probably - successful intimidate check and you mark the orc and either way you grant him combat advantage - or straight intimidate check and the orc will not attack Jim next turn but you don't get to attack at all).  Yup.  And they do what dramatist mechanics should do - resolve conflict.  (I prefer the older GDS system to GNS, although both have flaws).  Here we agree.  The core difference between RPGs and boardgames is (as I said above) a difference between whether what isn't prohibited is allowed or what isn't allowed is prohibited.  This has nothing to do with association of rules (Agricola is moderately associated despite being a boardgame - think like a farmer and you will do competently even if you barely know the rules.) And going back round again, all this doesn't make Dogs or Dread associated.  What both those games do well is the only thing Dramatists demand out of a system - simple conflict resolution (paper, scissors, stone works for basic conflict resolution...)  What they then bring is a set of rules that engages the players emotionally rather than intellectually whether through being very careful round the tower and watching it wobble or the bid/raise mechanic to build tension.  This isn't a gamist or simulationist virtue (and it's the simulationists that want associated mechanics).  It's using the mechanics to bring the equivalent of truly awesome mood music and lighting. And 4e (combat) is like a good rock concert.  Great music - if you like rock.  But even if you do it can make it difficult to talk let alone think clearly about other styles of music.</blockquote>

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