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Message: <blockquote data-quote="amerigoV" data-source="post: 4991228">Lame players - in older editions, the fear was bad DMs. In general, you could survive a group with one or two social players (people that show up more for the social interaction than the game). That is much harder under 4e in my opinion. The team/party emphasis and the sharpening of roles on both sides of the DM screen in 4e mean that:1) Any DM that reads up on the basics will be running tougher encounters just due to better DM tools. Bad DMs are still bad DMs, but the encounters will have a more solid baseline.2) Lame players that do not know their class will get the group killed or force other players to learn the Lame player's class in more depth than in past editions. In the older editions, you just gave them the Fighter, handed them the d20, and pointed them in the right direction. You then focused on your PC. Now there is a lot more "carry" in some groups than their used to be.So if you have a strong group, 4e is fun to play. If a couple of social players, fun starts to decline. If I had to say here is where the MMO EXPERIENCE is starts to creap in for me in 4e, it is here - players that do not know their class make the game miserable for the rest of the group/raid (and risk wipes).As for the game itself, I am still getting to know it. I like it so far and cannot point to much that I dislike yet once I get past it is different from before(although, PHB1 was a dry read).</blockquote>