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Message: <blockquote data-quote="firesnakearies" data-source="post: 4557711" data-attributes="member: 71334">I don't see any Martial powers in this game which describe an occurrence happening which could never happen here in normal, mundane Earth, or which has never happened.  I don't see a single Martial power which, when I read it, I think, "There's just NO WAY that could ever happen in the real world.  What a fake superpower!"Come and Get It?  Is anyone on this thread actually of the opinion that the scenario described in this power is so impossible, so patently supernatural and contrary to the laws of reality as our science understands them, that this could never happen in the real world?If you walked into a bar, and saw a big fight breaking out, and some guy in a karate stance looked around at the half-dozen people around him, taunted them, and dared them to "come and get it" and then you subsequently observed all of those people rushing to attack him, would you immediately think, "HOLY CRAP, OH MY GOD, THAT WAS MAGIC!  There's NO WAY that could ever happen by natural means!  I literally just witnessed a supernatural event!  Who IS this sorcerer before me?  Am I hallucinating?  Is this some kind of movie scene being filmed?  Is this a hoax?  Am I being Punk'd?  HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY HAPPEN?"Or, if the guy standing next to you, watching the same scene, started shouting the same things I suggested above, would you nod at him with a look of shared amazement, or roll your eyes at him like he was a moron?Seriously.If we're going to use these ideas of mundane versus magical, then it stands to reason that as soon as we can logically concede that such a thing has likely happened at least once in the history of Earth, or that it very well could happen, without all onlookers immediately assuming that magic was occurring, then the power which describes a character doing such a thing is perfectly mundane, and not magical.Throwing a fireball at someone out of thin air with no apparent technological apparatus?  Yeah, it's safe to say that most anyone would view that as something supernatural or mystical.  But daring some dudes to "come and get it" and then watching them take that dare?  Not exactly Hogwarts curriculum, there.Magic:  "an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source  ;  the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature"Supernatural:  "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe        ;  of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil  ;  departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature  ;  attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)"Which Martial power(s) in the PHB, if you watched a guy do it in a bar fight tomorrow, would you declare to be unquestionably "magical" or "supernatural" according to the above definitions?I, for one, can't find any.Now, I already know what the argument is going to be.  "Sure, someone could do that, possibly, in real life, in certain circumstances.  But they couldn't do it anytime they want, once every five minutes, to absolutely anyone who happened to be within 10 feet of them!"Well sure, I agree with you.  If someone I knew in real life could, in fact, do exactly that, I'd consider it at least borderline mystical, if not outright supernatural.  But D&D doesn't actually claim that any given Fighter could do that.  All it claims is that, once per encounter, the character just happens to be in a situation where s/he can do it.  Unlikely?  Yep.  Obviously the charmed life of a fictional protagonist?  Yep.But that's what a D&D character is!  That's what a D&D game is -- a fictional, fantasy story.  (And a game, too, which is a fact that a surprising number of people seem to forget and/or really have a problem with.)  The game, as in any fictional story ever created, is chock full of convenient concidences and incidents of near-miraculous serendipity, which just happen to allow the characters to be in the right place at the right time, to survive when "the odds" would clearly make them uninsurable at best, to allow the plot of the story to proceed.Try to write a story where only the most likely thing happens in every single scene and circumstance.  That's going to be a really boring story, and it wouldn't make for a very fun game, either.  In fact, I'm playing that game all day, every day, and so are you!  (No DM needed!)Ultimately, with all of these issues related to apparent narrative disconnects in 4E due to thematic preferences or assumptions of realism, there are basically only four options:1.)   Accept the idea of shared narrative control, and then everything works out fine, as the players are literally storytellers too, and have the same power as the DM, on a perhaps more limited basis, to tell the story and describe the circumstances in which the characters find themselves, rather than merely the actual decisions made in the gameworld by their particular character.2.)   Accept the idea that the PCs are, in fact, not like normal Earth people, and even the most "mundane" of them simply have the inherent ability as fantasy heroes to perform impossibly heroic feats such as routinely altering their personal fate, forcing other creatures to do what they want on occasion, and recovering quickly from their own grievous physical wounds with or without outside help.3.)   Decide that the first two ideas are just not acceptable to you, not your idea of roleplaying, or of fun, or of verisimilitude, and then change the game to whatever extent you need to, in order for the rules, and the narrative which the rules imply, to make sense to you according to your thematic preferences and ideas of realism.  Nearly every complaint I've seen in this category could be rectified with very minor house-ruling and reskinning of flavor text.4.)   As a last resort, decide that the first two ideas are just not acceptable to you, and that the third option to alter the rules is too much work or otherwise not worth your time, and just not play the game.  (In my opinion, though, people who are willing to jump to this decision have very little right to complain about the game.  Well, they have as much right as anyone else, but they should have very little expectation of being taken seriously.)Now, having said all of that, some people might still have the complaint, "Yeah, but the designers of 4E D&D shouldn't have made the game in such a way that I have to make that choice!"I can't say that's an invalid way to feel.  I completely support anyone's right to think that, and to be displeased with the game as it exists, given that none of the four options above may be satisfying to a particular player.But the game is what it is, and many, many people like it that way.  So it's safe to say that it is designed for a target audience, and that target audience either has no real problem with it, or is willing to make one of the first three choices listed above, and go on with their enjoyment of D&D.You can be unhappy that the target audience doesn't include you, but claiming that this somehow makes it a bad game is just silly, and I doubt you'll ever make a compelling argument to the contrary.I have no interest in watching Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood.  It's not for me.  It doesn't offer the specific form(s) of entertainment that I look for in a motion picture.  I'm really not in the target audience for that movie.  But I'm certainly not going to sit here and claim that it's a bad film because of that.D&D 4th Edition isn't broken, flawed, or badwrongfun.  It's just designed from a different set of assumptions, preferences, and priorities than some people are coming from in their gaming philosophy.  You can change your perception, you can change the game, or you can kick the dust off your feet and find something you like more.All that I ask is that you consider, for a moment, that the first three options are options, before committing yourselves wholly to Reject and Attack Mode.</blockquote>

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