Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="SteveC" data-source="post: 4558344" data-attributes="member: 9053">I think a lot of this current discussion can be (and already has been) summed up in saying that 4E is giving players a new form of narrative control that hasn't existed before. Thus Come and Get It doesn't have to be explained a magical, it's just that now the player gets some new authority over how the game world runs that they didn't have earlier. That's it, full stop.I think the people who are objecting to it the strongest basically fall into two categories: those for who this is entirely new for, and those who simply don't want that play style in their D&D.For the first group: I'd suggest that they try some other games where this is commonplace. Feng Shui, Donjon or Spirit of the Century immediately come to mind, as does the HERO system or even Mutants and Masterminds. All of those games give the players significant control over what and how actions are resolved in ways that D&D traditionally hasn't. I'd say try one or more of those other games and then see if it causes 4E to either "click," or turns you into someone in group two.For the second group, those who say "I know what's going on, I just don't like that in my D&D," I'd say you can either feel free to house rule those cases or move on to another game. Complaining about it on a message board comes in a distant third. Yes, I know that Come and Get It might make your monsters do something they wouldn't like to, and that you don't like that. No, there isn't an explanation for it that won't sound magical to you, and that's something fighters shouldn't do. Yes, you can use any number of powers to trip an ooze, something that makes no logical sense. If you're going to play 4E you have to accept those things or house rule them. Either one is okay.That might come off as dismissive, and that's not what I intended, because that's precisely what I did with earlier editions of D&D. I houseruled the heck out of OD&D and AD&D, and when I found a system that was more to my taste (Champions and Fantasy Hero) I eventually left the ship for it.When 3E came out, I found that a lot of the things I had left the game over were gone, so I came back to it as well. I am one of those people who likes the new narrative structure to 4E, so to me, it's getting better. There are, of course, things I don't like about 4E, and when I start a full-on campaign with it I'll be house ruling them just like before.What it all comes down to (in my mind, anyway) is that there is a new mindset to the new edition, and that means there will be people who can't or won't wrap their mind around the new way. There's nothing wrong with that, and nothing inherently right about liking the new way, but in one case you should play and enjoy 4E, and in the other you should play something else that you actually enjoy. When 5E comes out, you might like what you see, and the game will still be there for you.All of this discussion comes down to people trying to find an explanation for how a power works that will suspend everyones sense of disbelief. That's not going to happen, just like it didn't happen in earlier editions. That's why I left the game years ago. If this was a new phenomenon there would have been no Arduin, Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Fantasy Trip or any number of other games created to be "D&D done right," years ago.--Steve</blockquote>

Verification