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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 4559729" data-attributes="member: 48965">Personally, I think anything can be justified as &quot;narrative&quot; when there are no tropes or trappings to use as a basis for the narrative... it's like one of those stories a 6 yr old tells you where things happen often illogically, without a basis... it's narrative certainly, but it doesn't make sense that &quot;5 robots show up at the castle of Lord Ven and shoot him with lasers.&quot;... that I think is the problem with D&amp;D 4e and the narrative excuse.&nbsp;What exactly are the trappings and tropes of D&amp;D... there are none, especially in the vaguely defined 4e PoL setting.&nbsp; As an example, of this done right look at the Angel rpg.&nbsp; The series shows us that the narrative of an Angel character, especially one whose sub-par (compared to Slayers, vampires with souls, Wiccans on magic speed and cyborgs) often involves them sliding by or even getting one up on a more powerful character through sheer luck, circumstance, etc.&nbsp; Thus Drama points make sense in an Angel rpg narrative sense.&nbsp; Not to mention they take the time to explain this within the corebook. &nbsp;&nbsp;Now tell me what is the narrative basis for D&amp;D?&nbsp; It's all over the place, and a vague setting doesn't help in creating a narrative game...at least so far as what are the narrative tropes.&nbsp; For some playing D&amp;D their characters narrative should be like Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser...for others Aragorn and Arwyn...for others Naruto, Kenshin and Jubei. &nbsp;&nbsp;But D&amp;D doesn't take the effort to let you know the basis for it's narrative play and thus why I believe it is gamist in the sense that these really are powers not built around either simulationist or narrative concerns...but around only the game aspect.&nbsp; Just because you can squint and twist your head just so... to make it look narrativist, doesn't mean it is.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 4559729, member: 48965"] Personally, I think anything can be justified as "narrative" when there are no tropes or trappings to use as a basis for the narrative... it's like one of those stories a 6 yr old tells you where things happen often illogically, without a basis... it's narrative certainly, but it doesn't make sense that "5 robots show up at the castle of Lord Ven and shoot him with lasers."... that I think is the problem with D&D 4e and the narrative excuse. What exactly are the trappings and tropes of D&D... there are none, especially in the vaguely defined 4e PoL setting. As an example, of this done right look at the Angel rpg. The series shows us that the narrative of an Angel character, especially one whose sub-par (compared to Slayers, vampires with souls, Wiccans on magic speed and cyborgs) often involves them sliding by or even getting one up on a more powerful character through sheer luck, circumstance, etc. Thus Drama points make sense in an Angel rpg narrative sense. Not to mention they take the time to explain this within the corebook. Now tell me what is the narrative basis for D&D? It's all over the place, and a vague setting doesn't help in creating a narrative game...at least so far as what are the narrative tropes. For some playing D&D their characters narrative should be like Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser...for others Aragorn and Arwyn...for others Naruto, Kenshin and Jubei. But D&D doesn't take the effort to let you know the basis for it's narrative play and thus why I believe it is gamist in the sense that these really are powers not built around either simulationist or narrative concerns...but around only the game aspect. Just because you can squint and twist your head just so... to make it look narrativist, doesn't mean it is. [/QUOTE]

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