Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7526338" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Alright, continuing on.</p><p></p><p>I'm going to extend this little bit of a digression to talk about Trad D&D (for this, I'm using Basic and 1e) vs 4e, 5e, and Torchbearer. </p><p></p><p>One of the primary pieces of machinery in Trad D&D is Monster Reaction Rolls/Table. When the PCs encounter a Wandering Monster or a Random Encounter, the disposition of a creature is often unfixed (except for things like Oozes, Zombies, Golems et al). 1e and Basic handle this slightly differently, but philosophically, its the same. If the PCs want to talk (and can) and the creature is capable of functional parley, roll Monster Reaction and we find out where that takes us (with the result + context of the dungeon setting guiding the GM in their further handling of the encounter).</p><p></p><p>What did 4e, 5e, and Torchbearer do? No more Monster Reaction Rolls. </p><p></p><p>Torchbearer and 5e have some similarities in NPC machinery. Torchbearer Monsters have an Instinct and Descriptors that the GM will use to frame conflict/parley with NPCs. 5e has Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws that will be doing much the same work.</p><p></p><p>4e doesn't have that kind of machinery, but the GM is advised to play NPCs as obstacles that engage with (perhaps interpose themselves between) PC thematic goals (Quests, Themes, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies).</p><p></p><p>So the latter 3 systems have GMs directly framing NPCs (with cues) without the emergent system input of Monster Reaction Rolls.</p><p></p><p>What is the difference in play?</p><p></p><p>The nature of refereeing changes in this component. The former has an "objective refereeing" paradigm where action declaration (PCs talk to a Wandering Monster) meets chance determines disposition (rolling on a table) to find out what happens. Its essential for a pure "dungeon simulator" type of feel, where the exclusive goal is to defeat an environment of obstacles (defeat in this case meaning "get as much treasure out without needless setbacks and risks that may confound the whole operation"), that the GM is playing "neutrally."</p><p></p><p>The latter 3 games aren't refereed "objectively" or "neutrally" in the same sense as those former 2 games. That isn't to say that those games prescribe adversarial GMing. It is to say that the GM has different play priorities (and the GM in each system has slightly different play priorities, but there is some overlap in a Venn Diagram that features the 3 systems...they also each have different machinery that hooks into their play priorities). This is also because the goals of play for each of these 3 systems are different than those former 2 systems (though 5e and Torchbearer certainly have some instances of overlap with 1e and Basic, with Torchbearer having much, much more).</p><p></p><p>Challenge their thematic portfolio, goals, and skill at overcoming obstacles as you move through the hierarchy of D&D tropes.</p><p>Be master of rules, master of adventure, and lead storyteller in a tale that hooks into PC background, ideals, bonds, flaws.</p><p>Test their nature and belief in unforgiving, desperate circumstances where the light is always dying.</p><p></p><p>Those latter three don't entail "objective" or "neutral" refereeing. The point of refereeing is that you're supposed to be doing stuff that isn't neutral!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7526338, member: 6696971"] Alright, continuing on. I'm going to extend this little bit of a digression to talk about Trad D&D (for this, I'm using Basic and 1e) vs 4e, 5e, and Torchbearer. One of the primary pieces of machinery in Trad D&D is Monster Reaction Rolls/Table. When the PCs encounter a Wandering Monster or a Random Encounter, the disposition of a creature is often unfixed (except for things like Oozes, Zombies, Golems et al). 1e and Basic handle this slightly differently, but philosophically, its the same. If the PCs want to talk (and can) and the creature is capable of functional parley, roll Monster Reaction and we find out where that takes us (with the result + context of the dungeon setting guiding the GM in their further handling of the encounter). What did 4e, 5e, and Torchbearer do? No more Monster Reaction Rolls. Torchbearer and 5e have some similarities in NPC machinery. Torchbearer Monsters have an Instinct and Descriptors that the GM will use to frame conflict/parley with NPCs. 5e has Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws that will be doing much the same work. 4e doesn't have that kind of machinery, but the GM is advised to play NPCs as obstacles that engage with (perhaps interpose themselves between) PC thematic goals (Quests, Themes, Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies). So the latter 3 systems have GMs directly framing NPCs (with cues) without the emergent system input of Monster Reaction Rolls. What is the difference in play? The nature of refereeing changes in this component. The former has an "objective refereeing" paradigm where action declaration (PCs talk to a Wandering Monster) meets chance determines disposition (rolling on a table) to find out what happens. Its essential for a pure "dungeon simulator" type of feel, where the exclusive goal is to defeat an environment of obstacles (defeat in this case meaning "get as much treasure out without needless setbacks and risks that may confound the whole operation"), that the GM is playing "neutrally." The latter 3 games aren't refereed "objectively" or "neutrally" in the same sense as those former 2 games. That isn't to say that those games prescribe adversarial GMing. It is to say that the GM has different play priorities (and the GM in each system has slightly different play priorities, but there is some overlap in a Venn Diagram that features the 3 systems...they also each have different machinery that hooks into their play priorities). This is also because the goals of play for each of these 3 systems are different than those former 2 systems (though 5e and Torchbearer certainly have some instances of overlap with 1e and Basic, with Torchbearer having much, much more). Challenge their thematic portfolio, goals, and skill at overcoming obstacles as you move through the hierarchy of D&D tropes. Be master of rules, master of adventure, and lead storyteller in a tale that hooks into PC background, ideals, bonds, flaws. Test their nature and belief in unforgiving, desperate circumstances where the light is always dying. Those latter three don't entail "objective" or "neutral" refereeing. The point of refereeing is that you're supposed to be doing stuff that isn't neutral! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain
Top