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D&D Older Editions
4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7528686" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Here are the issues as I see them:</p><p></p><p><strong>Combat</strong>: A substrate upon which fictional positioning and how it relates to gamestate (the two creating a feedback loop until the conflict has been resolved), action economy, and related opportunity cost dictate moves made and attendant outcomes.</p><p></p><p>vs</p><p></p><p><strong>Skill Challenge</strong>: A substrate upon which fictional positioning and how it relates to gamestate (the two creating a feedback loop until the conflict has been resolved) dictate moves made and attendant outcomes.</p><p></p><p>One of these things is not like the others!</p><p></p><p>Action economy as "game units" and the related opportunity cost creates a situation whereby when the two (combat resolution and noncombat resolution) are coinciding in the same scene, you have an extra layer of fairly significant cognitive workload that has to be worked out expeditiously (so table time isn't exacerbated and so pacing isn't halted) and with precision (so players actually have interesting and meaningful decision-points in their action declarations...if the action economy is a cluster-eff - eg too punitive or too rewarding to commit to action x vs action y - then there are no decision-points to be made...they make themselves). </p><p></p><p>Now don't get me wrong, this can certainly be done by deft GMing (I've done it aplenty...see the example above with the Fighter co-opting the tank), its just a layer of the system that is at tension and therefore you get push-back when handling it. You don't get the same push-back in a unified resolution framework like Dogs, Fate, PBtA, Cortex+ because there is a natural parity of "game units" between cutting words, cutting blades, and piloting a cutter.</p><p></p><p>Make sense?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7528686, member: 6696971"] Here are the issues as I see them: [B]Combat[/B]: A substrate upon which fictional positioning and how it relates to gamestate (the two creating a feedback loop until the conflict has been resolved), action economy, and related opportunity cost dictate moves made and attendant outcomes. vs [B]Skill Challenge[/B]: A substrate upon which fictional positioning and how it relates to gamestate (the two creating a feedback loop until the conflict has been resolved) dictate moves made and attendant outcomes. One of these things is not like the others! Action economy as "game units" and the related opportunity cost creates a situation whereby when the two (combat resolution and noncombat resolution) are coinciding in the same scene, you have an extra layer of fairly significant cognitive workload that has to be worked out expeditiously (so table time isn't exacerbated and so pacing isn't halted) and with precision (so players actually have interesting and meaningful decision-points in their action declarations...if the action economy is a cluster-eff - eg too punitive or too rewarding to commit to action x vs action y - then there are no decision-points to be made...they make themselves). Now don't get me wrong, this can certainly be done by deft GMing (I've done it aplenty...see the example above with the Fighter co-opting the tank), its just a layer of the system that is at tension and therefore you get push-back when handling it. You don't get the same push-back in a unified resolution framework like Dogs, Fate, PBtA, Cortex+ because there is a natural parity of "game units" between cutting words, cutting blades, and piloting a cutter. Make sense? [/QUOTE]
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