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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4227803" data-attributes="member: 61449">I find this to be enlightening and somehow frustrating all at once. I was under the impression that I preferred a fair mix of nar and gam, and I have been relatively turned off by sim. I have played in games where it was "plot-less", where the impetus of the action was all on the players. I felt that they were incoherent, and not just plot-less, but pointless. Maybe the group I was with did it all wrong, but there was continual conflict between the GM and players. Either we did nothing, or the GM was squashing our plans because they didn't fit his world concept. If nar is supposed to be this free of predetermined plot, I am not interested. Granted, a little more narrative power would have gone a long way for the players. I have played in games where it was a long string of encounters that had no point other than "kill things, take their stuff." It was fun for what is was, but left me feeling like the game was hollow. No real chance for discovery, just geeks with dice. Gamism alone will be very unsatisfying for me as an RP outlet. I play lots of gamist games, and most are more fun than RPGs for that style.I have also played in games that were the cliched amature novelist GM meets munchkin, thesbian, grognard, rules-lawyer, me, and a guy who always shouts "that's not how it should work!" as a party. Railroad city, with frustration on every side for about ten sessions before we just decide to drink instead. Much healthier. Sticking too much to a concept, whether embodied in the rules, a genre, or some hair-brained GM railroad is no fun. I have many other outlets that already tell me what I can't do. No need for my imagination driven hoby to do that as well.I am looking for a game that has a plot and a point beyond the immediacy of the challenge, but is not limited strictly to some "High Concept" held either by the rules or by the amature novelist GM. I want a plot I can interact with, not be subjected to. But I also want that feeling of discovery that comes from not being in charge. The way the characters in stories feel at the start of their adventure. I also want that bildungsroman feeling. There are elements that enhance this. Abstraction of the rules as they relate to the world allows a lot of narrative interpretation. 4e seems to have this. HP are a good start. Protagonization of the PCs so that they can effectively be "Nobodys" but still in possesion of "plot super powers". Healing surges and second wind mechanics seem to be a good start toward this. I want evocative and varied ability to take action and interact with the scene. The unified mechanic of 1/2 lv. + ability mod vs. Defense when combined with the powers and skill challenges seem to get at this. And to top all this off, I want enough of a fun game that it doesn't grind on boringly, and without the game getting in the way of my imagination and character concept. The separation of in-combat role from out-of-combat role, along with the seemingly flexible multiclass rules and the promised retraining rules, and mixed with the death of Vancian magic and the promised amazing ritual rules seem like they will facilitate my ideas of what makes a good game.Through hashing all this out in this post, I am coming to the realization that if all goes as promised, 4e will make me care much less about GNS theory. Maybe a tweak to the rules here and there as a house rule could be inspired by GNS theory, but on the whole I am confident I will be satisfied with the possibilities of the system. Now I just need more time to play and the ability to find a group that fits my playstyle. Oh yeah, and I have to wait til June.</blockquote>

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