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<blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4237337" data-attributes="member: 61449">Weak and strong are relative terms. Only by giving a baseline of adversaries can this be true. Same applies here. Bildungsroman does not require any mechanical support to achieve. It requires that the characters start &quot;normal&quot; and progress to &quot;accomplished&quot;, and usually refers more to personal and spiritual growth than personal power. Since &quot;normal&quot; and &quot;accomplished&quot; are both fluff, 4e will not deny bildungsroman as we are talking about it. In the fantasy literature bildungsroman has been adapted to mean &quot;Farmboy to Hero&quot;, but nothing in that requires a deprotagonization of the character early in their career. The character has to have options and has to survive for them to make it until the hero stage, or the character dies or is very uninteresting, or has some higher level protection. None of these are fun. Some authors use the option of &quot;don't get in a fight&quot; to keep them alive, some use the &quot;he got really lucky&quot;, some use protection, and some use the &quot;characters are special from the beginning&quot;. All of these require that the character have the possibility of death, but also the invariable fact that they don't die. Otherwise they are just side characters and not protagonists (read PCs). Since DMPCs (read protection) and &quot;don't get into a fight&quot; are not fun, then this leaves the options of &quot;get really lucky&quot; and &quot;characters are special&quot;. &quot;Get really lucky&quot; is not fun if they don't, so mechanics have been created to achieve this, which really becomes &quot;characters are special&quot;, at least in game mechanical sense if not actually in fluff sense. In any event, 4e lessens the need or possibility of the unfun options for bildungsroman, while leaving only the fun possibilities still in for those who like this trope. It just requires that you separate your &quot;story&quot; from your &quot;game&quot; a little. And this still doesn't eliminate the possibility of creating characters that just plain suck for those who want to. I don't think that any of the previous options for bildungsroman have been eliminated, just added to, and given a mechanical framework to ensure that the bildungsroman theme can be made to work successfully more often and in more fun ways than &quot;Run away!!!&quot; or &quot;Don't worry kid. I'll protect you!&quot; or &quot;Good thing I rolled that natural one or your PC would have been squashed!&quot; Sounds like the game is better for everyone who doesn't like to have to get lucky for their character not to die or suck.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="PrecociousApprentice, post: 4237337, member: 61449"] Weak and strong are relative terms. Only by giving a baseline of adversaries can this be true. Same applies here. Bildungsroman does not require any mechanical support to achieve. It requires that the characters start "normal" and progress to "accomplished", and usually refers more to personal and spiritual growth than personal power. Since "normal" and "accomplished" are both fluff, 4e will not deny bildungsroman as we are talking about it. In the fantasy literature bildungsroman has been adapted to mean "Farmboy to Hero", but nothing in that requires a deprotagonization of the character early in their career. The character has to have options and has to survive for them to make it until the hero stage, or the character dies or is very uninteresting, or has some higher level protection. None of these are fun. Some authors use the option of "don't get in a fight" to keep them alive, some use the "he got really lucky", some use protection, and some use the "characters are special from the beginning". All of these require that the character have the possibility of death, but also the invariable fact that they don't die. Otherwise they are just side characters and not protagonists (read PCs). Since DMPCs (read protection) and "don't get into a fight" are not fun, then this leaves the options of "get really lucky" and "characters are special". "Get really lucky" is not fun if they don't, so mechanics have been created to achieve this, which really becomes "characters are special", at least in game mechanical sense if not actually in fluff sense. In any event, 4e lessens the need or possibility of the unfun options for bildungsroman, while leaving only the fun possibilities still in for those who like this trope. It just requires that you separate your "story" from your "game" a little. And this still doesn't eliminate the possibility of creating characters that just plain suck for those who want to. I don't think that any of the previous options for bildungsroman have been eliminated, just added to, and given a mechanical framework to ensure that the bildungsroman theme can be made to work successfully more often and in more fun ways than "Run away!!!" or "Don't worry kid. I'll protect you!" or "Good thing I rolled that natural one or your PC would have been squashed!" Sounds like the game is better for everyone who doesn't like to have to get lucky for their character not to die or suck. [/QUOTE]

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