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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FourthBear" data-source="post: 4018336" data-attributes="member: 55846">Again, this entire discussion began based on your claim that the design changes in 4e were such that they would transfer narrative control over to the player.  Now you seem to want to discuss ways in which the game *could* transfer narrative control.  I assure you that I am aware of many ways the game *could* do so, I have been part of many Forge-inspired and similar discussions.  My disagreement is with your previous claim, that 4e design *is*, in actual reality, going to do any such thing.  Given that we are currently in a thread titled "4e: DM-proofing the game"with claims floating around that 4e will somehow reduce the DM to a combat adjudicator, the truth value of your claim is highly relevant.The action resolution system in 4e and the mathematics associated with the resolution system are indeed being overhauled to allow the DM more predictive control over play.  The shifting of powers from strict per day in the core rules to per day, per encounter and at will is designed to prevent the expenditure of the extremely powerful per day abilities of some classes from dictating adventure pacing.  In terms of player/DM control, the issue is almost entirely orthogonal.  As I noted, the whole issue is easily turned on its head to note that the DM can now pace and predict the outcome of adventures as he wishes to a greater extent.And my counter-contention is that this is simply false.  Campaign guides in D&D since the dawn of the game have explicitly designed safe havens for PCs to rest and train in when they are recovering from adventuring.  This situation in 4e has not changed one jot or tittle.  The PoL campaign puts more control into the DMs hands by making the game world as a whole mysterious and under his exclusive purview, as opposed to campaign settings where the player's characters know well what lies over the next hill.I think that the designers statements indicate what they intend, yes.  And nothing I have seen in those statements indicate that they intend as a design goal the transfer of narrative power away from the DM.  Their preferences are to making a system that allows the DM to better predict outcomes with improved systems, to change adventuring pacing by allowing all PCs per day, per encounter and at will abilities and many different design goals.  Yes, I did read that thread.  A statement about monsters not having as default a PC ability has nothing to do with constraining the DM.  It makes an assumption about the DMs wishes about combat (that most opponents are intended to be defeated without taking up as much narrative time as others).  However, if the DM wants all of his opponents to have Second Wind, they do!  Heck, he could make them all unkillable.  This does not in any way, shape or form constrain the DM.Lists of suggested examples do not constrain the DM.Apparently giving players Action Points somehow gives the players narrative control.  Remember, that *is* your contention here, remember? If these mechanics grant such power, then the DM can grant it to his opponents to reap those benefits just as well.  Why would he?  I don't know, however he's not constrained by the system.That pretty much sums it up.  So because the DM now has more power over monster creation by the 4e rules, he clearly has seized more power in your zero sum universe.To me it sounds as though you have a theory about this upcoming edition and narrative control and you are carefully selecting examples to justify your predetermined conclusion: that 4e will be transferring narrative control to the players.  Most of your examples have perfectly fine design explanations that have nothing to do with the DM/player narrative control interactions, they have to do with worldbuilding, more predictive encounter mechanics and less constraining rules on DMs during design.  You seem to be viewing the entire scope of game design through the narrow lens of player narrative power.  It's like someone who wants to  put all social dynamics viewed through the lens of class.</blockquote>

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