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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FourthBear" data-source="post: 4019624" data-attributes="member: 55846">How does it increase the players' power?   They cannot bring allies into the fight in 4e any more than they could in 3.5e.  The unpredictability of the system can benefit the players just as often as it can harm them.  And DMs jury-rig to save the players just as often as they might to keep the players from an easy victory.  The benefit to DMs is clear: the ability to better predict outcomes from the encounters they present.   Yes, in a less predictive system a DM could apply fiat to gain his desired state.  With a better system, the DM doesn't even need to do that.  I am simply not seeing a clear increase in players' narrative control to match, let alone equal, this.Since I've noted many times that I believe the rules of D&D are indeed changing significantly, I'm assuming that what you are actually asking is what would I consider a change in D&D in terms of narrative control (the subject of this discussion).  As I noted, I am quite familiar with the various elements that *could* be clearly introduced into 4e to change narrative control.  If 4e was going to introduce to players Drama Points that allowed them to dictate their challenges, call upon new allies to appear or any number of such mechanics, I would consider that a clear indication that D&D was increasing player narrative control.  Also, a clear statement from the designers that increased player narrative control would also help.  Nowhere can I find anything that indicates that increased player narrative control is a 4e design goal.In point of fact, we do have notes from the designers about why they are making these changes.  Mearls has listed what he noted as problems in the previous edition that the rules changes were intended to remedy.  Nowhere on that list did I find decreased player narrative control.  Further, most of the rules changes you have cited in this thread are actually aimed at solving those problems, not changing narrative control.  The rules changes may incidentally change DM or player narrative control, but that is not their primary purpose.No, because HeroQuest has honest to goodness player narrative mechanics.  If you can produce that in 4e, then I will agree.  I have disagreed with all of your examples to date (with the exception of Action Points), that does not mean you could not theoretically produce a HeroQuest quality example. I thought you already admitted that this sidebar is not forbidding the DM to have hostile encounters in the Points of Light setting?  Also, that the PoL setting is an example default setting only?  OK, we can argue about this all over again.  The remarks are *design notes*.   Mearls' *own* PoL setting in Iron Heroes features numerous in town encounters!  The Realms has been mentioned as being reworked into a PoL style setting.  Do you think that in 4e, there will be no more city encounters in the Realms?  Again, if in my campaign notes on a post-apocalyptic setting, I note that Bartertown can serve as a safe haven from the threats on the road, have I somehow limited the DM from having hostile encounters in Bartertown?  Of course not and it wasn't my intention in the statement.  I assumed that the person reading it was capable of understanding nuance, rather than reading it like a robot in a bad Sci-Fi film.  The reason I have been making statements on GM control is because that is the subject of this thread.  I view the changes to the rules in 4e to be due to the various and explicitly stated goals of the designers.  4e isn't some step on the game evolution ladder as theorized by GNS theory, with 1e at the bottom and working its way towards some kind of player narrative empowerment.  The changes to 4e are for design goals orthogonal to narrative goals.   Some may increase DM/player narrative power as an incidental effect.  However, you are far too quick to find some element that increases player narrative control and declaring victory.  Those very same elements you cite also increase DM narrative control in various ways.  I see no evidence that there is any overall increase in player narrative power relative to the DM in 4e.</blockquote>

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