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<blockquote data-quote="Grog" data-source="post: 3735014" data-attributes="member: 6183">You're absolutely right that changing the CR/EL system would not allow 1st level 3E characters to fight 20 goblins. But what you have to remember is that it's not just the CR/EL system that's being changed. The whole D&amp;D combat encounter system is being rebuilt from the ground up to allow for larger battles like 20 goblins vs. 4 1st level PCs. The underlying math is being changed.I probably shouldn't have said that it's 3E's CR/EL system that breaks down when dealing with large numbers of foes. That's not quite right. It's the 3E paradigm of how combat encounters should work that doesn't really allow for battles like that (the paradigm that says that a typical encounter should consume 20-25% of the party's resources). It looks to me like that paradigm is being changed - and if so, I'm all for it.Yes, I definitely agree with you on this. The &quot;minion&quot; concept is perfect for a game like M&amp;M because it fits the flavor of the genre - Batman and Robin never have trouble beating up the hordes of faceless thugs they run up against. But it's not a good fit for D&amp;D. I might be okay with it if it was kept strictly as a very low-level concept - but even then, I think it really cheapens monsters like orcs, who are supposed to pose at least some level of threat to low-level PCs.And also, you run into the question of what makes some orcs &quot;minions&quot; and others not. I'll wait and see what they have planned, but right now, I'm not liking the concept.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Grog, post: 3735014, member: 6183"] You're absolutely right that changing the CR/EL system would not allow 1st level 3E characters to fight 20 goblins. But what you have to remember is that it's not just the CR/EL system that's being changed. The whole D&D combat encounter system is being rebuilt from the ground up to allow for larger battles like 20 goblins vs. 4 1st level PCs. The underlying math is being changed. I probably shouldn't have said that it's 3E's CR/EL system that breaks down when dealing with large numbers of foes. That's not quite right. It's the 3E paradigm of how combat encounters should work that doesn't really allow for battles like that (the paradigm that says that a typical encounter should consume 20-25% of the party's resources). It looks to me like that paradigm is being changed - and if so, I'm all for it. Yes, I definitely agree with you on this. The "minion" concept is perfect for a game like M&M because it fits the flavor of the genre - Batman and Robin never have trouble beating up the hordes of faceless thugs they run up against. But it's not a good fit for D&D. I might be okay with it if it was kept strictly as a very low-level concept - but even then, I think it really cheapens monsters like orcs, who are supposed to pose at least some level of threat to low-level PCs. And also, you run into the question of what makes some orcs "minions" and others not. I'll wait and see what they have planned, but right now, I'm not liking the concept. [/QUOTE]

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