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<blockquote data-quote="Grog" data-source="post: 3736693" data-attributes="member: 6183"><p>I've seen it stated many times over the years, both here and at other forums. It's certainly been my experience, as well. The problem with building mass encounters in 3E is that, in order to add enough monsters to make it a "mass" battle, you have to make the monsters so weak that they're not much of a threat to the PCs anymore, even in a large group.</p><p></p><p>The CR/EL system says that 16 orcs are an EL 7 encounter. But are orcs, with their 5 hit points, 13 AC, and +4 attack bonus, really a threat to 7th level characters? The fighter can cleave through them with ease. The wizard can wipe out the whole horde with just a spell or two. Even the rogue isn't going to have much trouble.</p><p></p><p>And yes, I know that I could probably create a situation where the orcs ambush the PCs and use terrain advantages, traps, etc., to make the encounter a challenge. But the fact that I'd have to put a lot of work into an encounter that the CR/EL system says should be an appropriate challenge by default, tells me that the system doesn't handle this type of combat very well. And my experience with 7 years of playing 3.x D&D bears that out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Who said there wouldn't be much challenge? Look, I know that these design & development articles are frustratingly vague, but inventing things that the developers didn't say only makes the problem worse.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There are plenty of 3E campaign worlds that do this, too (I'm looking in your direction, Forgotten Realms).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I seriously don't know where you're getting this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Grog, post: 3736693, member: 6183"] I've seen it stated many times over the years, both here and at other forums. It's certainly been my experience, as well. The problem with building mass encounters in 3E is that, in order to add enough monsters to make it a "mass" battle, you have to make the monsters so weak that they're not much of a threat to the PCs anymore, even in a large group. The CR/EL system says that 16 orcs are an EL 7 encounter. But are orcs, with their 5 hit points, 13 AC, and +4 attack bonus, really a threat to 7th level characters? The fighter can cleave through them with ease. The wizard can wipe out the whole horde with just a spell or two. Even the rogue isn't going to have much trouble. And yes, I know that I could probably create a situation where the orcs ambush the PCs and use terrain advantages, traps, etc., to make the encounter a challenge. But the fact that I'd have to put a lot of work into an encounter that the CR/EL system says should be an appropriate challenge by default, tells me that the system doesn't handle this type of combat very well. And my experience with 7 years of playing 3.x D&D bears that out. Who said there wouldn't be much challenge? Look, I know that these design & development articles are frustratingly vague, but inventing things that the developers didn't say only makes the problem worse. There are plenty of 3E campaign worlds that do this, too (I'm looking in your direction, Forgotten Realms). I seriously don't know where you're getting this. [/QUOTE]
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