4e Encounter Design Applied to 3e (Forked: 4e Combat Frustrating Instead of Fun?)

[Mercule]

Forked from: 4e Combat Frustrating Instead of Fun?

As I'm trying to apply 4e encounter principles to my ongoing 3.5 game, I'm favoring minions over solos by a pretty good margin.

So, I threw this out and then decided I wanted to follow up on the idea.

I like the encounter design in 4e. It really isn't that different than 3.5, when you think about it: Here's your goal, each critter counts for x. The major factor is that 4e has a somewhat different baseline: 5 critters for 5 PCs. Since I just happen to have 5 players, I took note at that and started adjusting my thinking, and it's been making encounter design a bit easier.

My group is 5 PCs and a henchman, so 6 party members. That means I really need to think of them as +1 level. The party is also 15th level and generally balanced.

The 3.5 method of encounter building says to look for an EL 16, prefer a single CR 16 creature. If you need to, two CR 14 creatures can be substituted. Bosses can be 18th or 19th, tops.

The 4e method says to look for 5 "standard" opponents and substitute more or less powerful instances, as needed. So, the first question I had to ask was "what CR monster in 3.5 in equivalent to a 'standard' monster in 4e?" The answer I settled on, for a party of 6 PCs, was (party level -2), or 13. That's something of a wild guess, but it seems to be holding up.

From there, I decided that minions are standard-2, elites are standard+2, and solo are standard+4. I'm playing with the idea of refining that by fixing the hit dice with standard as listed in the MM, elites at 3/4 of max, and solos as max. I'm not sure about that last part, yet, and it'll probably be something that gets adjusted with play.

I know the math doesn't seem quite right, but it does seem to work. A single storm giant (CR13), for example, isn't a significant threat to a single 15th level character. To only use two against a balanced party would be absurd.

Anyway, for my group, that means my encounter builds are now based on starting with an assumed 5 critters of CR 13. Two could be swapped out for a CR 15 critter, or four CR 11 critters could be added in place of one of the originals.

Doing all of the above would result in an elite commander, two guards, and four grunts. By 3.5 standards, that's an EL of 17 or 18, but the over all play seems to be better than that number would suggest. A standard party of four might necessitate lowering all the CRs by 1.

Thoughts? Like I said, it's not revolutionary, but I am finding it much easier and faster to build interesting encounters.

 

[Rechan]

You also need to take into account factors like the monsters To hit vs the PCs AC, Hit Points/saves/etc.

For instance, I don't know how a 15th wizard using a 5th or 6th level save-or-die factors out in the scheme of four encounters.

 

[Mercule]

You also need to take into account factors like the monsters To hit vs the PCs AC, Hit Points/saves/etc.

There's definitely some eyeballing involved. 4e has that baked in (in theory). But anything I do in 3.5 is going to be just an approximation. My goal isn't to convert the game, just see if some ease-of-use tools can be extracted.

On the other hand, if you've got an idea on how to simplify the equation you're talking about, I'm all ears.

For instance, I don't know how a 15th wizard using a 5th or 6th level save-or-die factors out in the scheme of four encounters.

I hadn't thought to mention it, but I have something of a happy situation in that my players and I seem to have come to an unspoken agreement that insta-kill effects are... not prohibited, but undesirable. I'm not sure whether that means this formula works better or worse than average for my group.

 

[Rechan]

I hadn't thought to mention it, but I have something of a happy situation in that my players and I seem to have come to an unspoken agreement that insta-kill effects are... not prohibited, but undesirable. I'm not sure whether that means this formula works better or worse than average for my group.

I wonder if that applies to monsters with insta-kill effects as well?

Because, a normal CR 9 monster doesn't really pose a threat to 15th level characters, and wouldn't effect the EL of an encounter. However, a Bodak standing in the back just casually using its death gaze is going to be a problem for Every PC Every Round.

Among other things, I would avoid an excess of monsters with fat resistances and Spell Resistance. A single monster with spell resistance and high saves are a mage's nightmare, but the melee guys are there to pound on it. When the melee guys are too wrapped up pounding on something else, the mage is going to be throwing his hands up.

I'd also warn against too many monsters with Improved Grab (and there are a lot); most monsters with Improved Grab have fat grapple bonuses. They are Going to Win. One Grapple Monster vs 4 PCs is salvagable, but 6 PCs vs 4 grapple monsters (or 3 grapplers and a rogue) is hell. However, one grapple monster and a few monsters that gang up on whoever is captured is totally fair.

For the sake of variety (and possibly, simplicity), advance some monsters. A Gargantuan Ochre Jelly (which can split!) and some Aboleth might cause the players to pause. A monster like the Ochre Jelly is pretty simple, letting you focus on the trickier powers.

Finally, this is the part that's going to take some time: if two (or more) monsters have spell-like abilities, research them for synergies. Upper level monsters are going to have a bucket full. Spell-likes are possibly best used in a running-battle style of 'Pow, Zap, flee - here comes my friend, who pow-zap, flee - here I am! POW!" Fiends are awful about all of the above, especially with their "Summon a Buddy" ability.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The key thing is figuring how difficult you want the encounter to be.

IME, an EL=party level encounter is a cakewalk. It's expected to eat only 20% of the party's resources and the party can easily handle four or five without being in danger.

EL=party level +2 is a pretty standard challenge. It could go south if the players make mistakes, their PCs are poorly balanced, they roll extremely poorly, and you roll extremely well. But realistically, there is very little chance that a PC will die in a EL+2 encounter unless it involves very swingy things like raging orc barbarians with greataxes and you have (sensibly IMO) banned Delay Death.

EL=party level +3 is a challenging battle that can feel like the climactic fight of a session, but the PCs will still very rarely lose and will only occasionally die.

EL=party level +4 is where you have a good chance for a death in the party and a noticable chance that the party will lose.

EL=party level +5 is where you start looking at a 50% chance of a TPK.

So, let's say you adopt EL=party level +2 as your standard encounter.

If you want one monster per PC at even levels, that's monster CR=party level -2.

So for a 15th level party, an equal number of CR 13 monsters. You want it to be challenging? Make them CR 14 monsters. Now it's EL=party level +3. Deadly? Use 15th level monsters and you're at EL=party level +4. The party is likely to lose? Use an equal number of monsters one higher level than the party. EL=party level +5.

So that's the fourth edition encounter design conversion in a nutshell. Monster level=CR+2.

How do minions figure in? Elites? Solos? Well, third edition doesn't actually have minions (a fact that I rather like myself), but elites and solos are actually pretty easy. Elite monster level=CR. Solo monster level=CR-2 (though you'll want to watch the rough spots of 3.x like blasphemy more closely than usual in this regard).

As I said, third edition doesn't have minions, but if you want more goons, you can double the number of monsters by using CR+4=level. This will typically work best with brute style monsters (but they also tend to make good minions storywise so it works out). They will be tougher than a 4th edition minion--usually taking two or three hits to kill at mid-high levels.

Another peculiarity of third edition is that the leader style monsters actually work unusually well as minions themselves. For instance, the 4th level orc war party (designed for 5 PCs) of one orc barbarian 4, one orc barbarian two, and four orc barbarian 1s becomes a whole lot more deadly if you trade one of the orc barbarian 1s for a wardrummer (bard). Trading the 4th level barbarian for a 4th level cleric? Not nearly so much.

A couple standard encounter templates:
1 elite soldier, 1 artillery, 4 minions. (1 CR=plvl, 1 CR=plvl-2, 4 CR=plvl-4)

1 elite brute, 2 soldiers, 2 minions (1 brute, 1 leader). 1 CR=plvl, 2 CR=plvl-2, 2 CR=plvl-4).

If you're willing to dig into the CR system rather than try for the 4e encounter building conversion, you can also have some interesting encounters by playing with odd numbers. 1 CR=Plvl+1, 3x CR=plvl-2, for instance gives you a fight that is a little more challenging than the standard encounter (EL=party level +2) but not nearly as challenging as the challenging encounter (EL=party level +3). It also manages to get in a monster that straddles the line between elite and solo.