Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6051701" data-attributes="member: 87792">This is indeed a problem.  It is, however, a problem with the 4e Extended Rest model - the main houserule I use is that you can only take an extended rest in a place of safety (like a friendly town or a home base).  That brings attritional HP back in as atttritional healing surges and makes the PCs question whether to waste a week going home or to push on. However that house rule can be made in a single half line bullet point.  It isn't "hard to remove".  The problem isn't the damage it's the "sleep and get it back" - a problem that D&D has had with casters ever since it left the dungeon (no one could take that many wandering monster rolls, so in practice you went back to base camp; this was part of the point of wandering monsters).  To fix it, change the "sleep and get it back" part.  And this is utterly untrue in my experience.  You can make a 4e fighter who's about as competent as a good 3.X rogue at rogue stuff without and the skills are all meaningful (Use Rope, I'm looking at you).  There are more concrete resources in 4e outside the encounter for 4e PCs than in any other version of D&D - all that is missing is the sheer power and flexibility of the most useful spells to re-write the game world. To take one example, a first level human fighter with both rogue multiclass feats can have training in Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Athletics, Streetwise, and Intimidate.  In 3.X terms this would be significant ranks Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Sleight Of Hand, Spot, Listen, Search, Climb, Jump, Swim, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), and Intimidate - or 14 different skills, all of which are useful to rogues.  4e Fighters are notoriously skill poor- but a 3.X rogue going flat out has major problems having as much out of combat competence as a 4e fighter who's going flat out even before the fighter starts in on the utility powers. Class for class, there's no contest between any 4e class and its 3.X equivalent in terms of out of combat ability that doesn't involve simply throwing magic at a problem.  And in 4e any class, with a single feat, can gain the ability to throw (ritual) magic at a problem.  Welcome to D&D.  4e is the only version of D&D with a general scene resolution system that doesn't revolve round killing people.  Which means if the group is inclined to be creative, 4e is the only version of D&D that actively supports the idea of solving encounters through methods other than (a) damage and healing or (b) snapping your fingers and making the encounter irrelevant with a spell. As for the idea that "every PC ability is focussed on that as well", this is both untrue and pure edition warring.  The skill system is not focussed on that - quite the reverse.  And skills are PC abilities - and abilities every PC has.  The ritual system is a system that can not be used in combat.  And doesn't generally do damage or healing.  Many utility powers can't be used in combat.  For that matter my current 4e character has three utility powers at 6th level (four if you count Words of Friendship) - not one of which has a significant combat use.  Plus an extremely broad range of skills. Now kindly stop spreading misinformation please.  For someone who isn't an enworld moderator to edition war by spreading objectively false information about 4e would be bad enough.   And no, you don't get to hide behind making absolute statements that are absolutely false and then claiming "there's exceptions to them, always" when the exceptions include literally every single non-magical PC in the game, and the second biggest system in the game.  At least not unless you want to go right out on a limb and say "In D&D only spellcasters can make 'meaningful and variegated contributions outside of an encounter'".</blockquote>

Verification